What I thought was an interesting hand - Page 5

ZootMurph · #41 08-11-2004, 10:33 AM

SossMan is my new favorite poster.

First, it's pretty sure you can say that the all in did not have KK or JJ. That being said, you are only behind 88... the rest of the range of hands you could be against (AA, AK, AQ, KQ, QQ, QJ, QT, etc...) make up the vast majority of possible hands against you, and you are ahead of them all. 3 possible 88 combinations, 1 KK, 1 JJ... making 5 hands you are behind. 8 AK, 6 AA, 8 KQ... making up the 'reasonable' hands that the allin could have, are 22. So 22 out of 27 hands, and this isn't counting other 'possible' hands, you are ahead of.

So, unless you have Hellmuthian reading abilities (thanks, SossMan... hope you don't mind my using this), you are way ahead of the range of hands you are against. You aren't dead against any... need runner runner jacks or diamonds against KK, 2 King outs and backdoor flush against JJ, 2 Kings, 2 Jacks, and backdoor flush against 88.

You can't fold this and not consider yourself playing 'weak'.

fnurt · #42 08-11-2004, 11:07 AM

I can't take your belief into account when telling you what I would do in the situation. If you have a strong belief that you're right, obviously you're going to go with it no matter what any of us might say. But I assumed the point of making this post was to solicit input from others, and maybe not fear the set the next time this situation comes up. If you're always going to be convinced this bet means a set no matter what we say, though, I'm not sure what the point of the post was.

SossMan · #43 08-11-2004, 11:25 AM

So, unless you have Hellmuthian reading abilities (thanks, SossMan... hope you don't mind my using this),

must give credit where credit is due...i believe cferejohn was the first to use Hullmuthian to describe a "big" laydown.

durron597 · #44 08-11-2004, 01:31 PM

Honestly, you have not yet answered this question: If you were going to fold KJ on one of the BEST possible flops for that hand (second ONLY to AQT), why would you play it at all?????

cferejohn · #45 08-11-2004, 02:13 PM

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this fold was very HELLMUTHIAN.

my new favorite adjective.

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Honestly, I think thats a compliment. Hellmuth may act like a whiny female canine when he gets beat but he is still one of the more succesful tournament players out there.

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Yes, but he did very publicly muck KK preflop to an all-in from a bigger stack and then was seemingly happy about it because "a 7 could have come on the flop and I would have been done".

Hellmuth is a hell of a player, don't get me wrong, but boy, he sometimes makes some silly-ass laydowns...

cferejohn · #46 08-11-2004, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, you have not yet answered this question: If you were going to fold KJ on one of the BEST possible flops for that hand (second ONLY to AQT), why would you play it at all?????

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, he didn't expect to be called in three places and then pushed in on when he made the raise. That is an unusual situation and it allowed him to put his opponent on a very specific range of hands. If he knows this player is pretty good and respects an UTG raise from him, he can pretty well put him on AK or a pocket pair. He adjusted to new information.

Again, I'm not sure I could ever make this laydown, but given that the pusher is a solid player, he can pretty dramatically lower the hands he would call with preflop here.

Just tell me you didn't muck it face up so everyone could see what a "great laydown" you made. Now *that* is Hellmuthian.

The danger here is talking yourself into these kinds of folds too often. I'm reminded of the first WPT event that Paul Phillips was in. Twice he mucked winning hands, *good* winning hands, to TJ Cloutier. One time he mucked an overpair QQ to Cloutier, who had AJ for top pair/top kicker. A third spade had hit the turn (*and* one of Phillps' queens was a spade). That's just a word of warning about where this path of "big laydowns" can lead.

Actually, the TV player who I have seen make the most *good* big laydowns is Scotty Nguyen. Can't think of any examples right now, but I've seen some I thought were pretty amazing, and I don't think I've ever see him lay down a big hand (2 pair or better) when it was good (not to say that he hasn't, I just haven't seen it).

tripdad · #47 08-11-2004, 02:36 PM

i think you made a TERRIFIC fold. not good...TERRIFIC! you did what we as poker players are supposed to do. make a read, act accordingly. had the all-in player been a LAG, or you had an "isolation read" on him, i am certain you would have made the call. great job!

purely from a cards prospetive or a math prospective, calling would have been prudent. what the math whizzes fail to understand is that, while odds calculation and math in general is as important a skill as any in hold'em, it is not the be-all, end-all. this is a people game, not a card game.

cheers!

cferejohn · #48 08-11-2004, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think you made a TERRIFIC fold. not good...TERRIFIC! you did what we as poker players are supposed to do. make a read, act accordingly. had the all-in player been a LAG, or you had an "isolation read" on him, i am certain you would have made the call. great job!

purely from a cards prospetive or a math prospective, calling would have been prudent. what the math whizzes fail to understand is that, while odds calculation and math in general is as important a skill as any in hold'em, it is not the be-all, end-all. this is a people game, not a card game.

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But what would you have said if the all-in had shown AK? Would it then be a "terrible" fold? Calling it great because it turned out to be right is being results oriented (like calling a preflop muck of KK "great" because the other player held AA). That's a slightly unfair comparison, I know, since the action allowed him to put his opponent on a very specific range of hands, but the point is that the "greatness" or "terribleness" of the fold needs to be evaluated seperately from what the opponent in fact held.

If he knew this player very well and knew that they would have mucked KQ and pushed AK preflop, I like this fold pretty well. Even better if he knew this player wouldn't flat call AA here preflop (which certainly some players would).

Bakified · #49 08-11-2004, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't take your belief into account when telling you what I would do in the situation. If you have a strong belief that you're right, obviously you're going to go with it no matter what any of us might say. But I assumed the point of making this post was to solicit input from others, and maybe not fear the set the next time this situation comes up. If you're always going to be convinced this bet means a set no matter what we say, though, I'm not sure what the point of the post was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, little testy!

I was just disagreeing with what you said in your first post to say that based on action I couldn't justify making the fold. To me, people often do give tells with their action. In fact, I tend to rely more on how people bet to make my reads, cause I really have trouble reading people's faces and posture. I posted this thread cause I enjoy reading this forum and wanted to put out one of my more interesting hands and wanted to hear people's takes on it. I've actually learned quite a bit from reading this thread on what some people might do in the 88's position with other hands, and mistakes I made. (like playing KJ early to begin with, even if I had reasons) I'm just getting little defensive right now cause it seems like people are branding me "weak" because I made a big laydown in what to me was an unusual situation. Had the 88 player slow played, my tournament probably would have ended that hand, but the unusual betting here (in my mind) managed to allow me to dodge a land mine which saved this tourny for me.

I don't mind being told I made a mistake here, just it seems like people are trying to make me feel bad about it!

Bakified · #50 08-11-2004, 03:04 PM

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Honestly, you have not yet answered this question: If you were going to fold KJ on one of the BEST possible flops for that hand (second ONLY to AQT), why would you play it at all?????

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Well I was trying to get heads up with a LAG, and didn't expect the multiple flat calls I got. I'm not denying playing KJ at all was a mistake, probably brought upon by too many marginal hands, but its not like I saw that flop and said, "whopp, gotta fold!" I was excited cause I thought for sure I was going to get drunk guys chips.