|
|
#31
08-10-2004, 06:43 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: What I thought was an interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] BB checked, I bet out 2400 to test the waters, drunk guy reraised me to 5000, one player folded, and the next one to act immediately went all in. BB folded, and action was to me. Call or fold? I'll post what I did in a bit, but want to see people's opinions first. [/ QUOTE ] Mistake #1: You bet small into a big pot giving odds to any straight draw like Q10 or 910. You should bet big or check with the intention of raising all-in. Mistake #2: You are even thinking of folding top two here. Garland [/ QUOTE ] Well, when I'm in a pot with an aggresive player, (like drunk guy) and I flop a strong hand, I like to bet weak in the hopes of inducing a raise. I dunno if thats correct or not, but I find it works well, as it did in this case. If it wasn't for the all-in, I would have pushed after getting reraised. 
|
|
#32
08-10-2004, 06:47 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: What I thought was an interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
I think there are plenty of good players (for example: me) who would have pushed here with AK or KQ given your weak flop bet and the essentially meaningless call from Sousey McScotchytilt. So, while the laydown turned out to be "good" in this situation, I would be careful about talking yourself into "big laydowns" too often. I mean, if you muck KK to a big raise preflop, every once in while you are going to be "right" and avoid AA, but barring extraordinary circumstances (like the one Sklansky describes in TPFAP), you are going to cost yourself chips in the long run mucking KK preflop... [/ QUOTE ] Heh, well I've never mucked KK preflop, no matter what the action. And have paid for it when someone turned up AA, but thats poker. But I am curious about your statement on pushing with KQ and AK. Would you, as a good player, call an early position raise from someone you view as tight, (I know its a big assumption that thats what they thought of me but I had reason to think so) with two other callers already in the pot with KQ? And would you flat call a raised pot with three people in it with AK when you got a maniac big stack calling station in it? I didn't think a good player would do either which is why I didn't think they just had top pair, and good kicker.
|
|
#33
08-10-2004, 07:02 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: What I thought was an interesting hand
I can't believe you folded this hand. I just worry that the fact you were correct this time is going to lead you to be even more scared of the nuts next time.
I would give you the benefit of the doubt if your fold was based on something you knew about the player, some tell he gave off at the table, anything. Folding based solely on the action is simply the wrong decision. It doesn't become right just because he had 88 this time, any more than calling with the worse hand becomes right if you draw out on the river.
|
|
#35
08-10-2004, 07:21 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: What I thought was an interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
Would you, as a good player, call an early position raise from someone you view as tight, (I know its a big assumption that thats what they thought of me but I had reason to think so) with two other callers already in the pot with KQ? And would you flat call a raised pot with three people in it with AK when you got a maniac big stack calling station in it? I didn't think a good player would do either which is why I didn't think they just had top pair, and good kicker. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think I would do either. I'd muck the KQ and push the AK. However, I know good players would make the AK call specifically (esp. given the UTG raise); I don't really agree with it, but I think it is defensible. If, for some reason, I had decided to play AK like this, I would have played it just like the 88 player did. I was almost sure when I read this that you folded and then were shown AK. I have to say, if you were playing against me, that would have been a great fold, because I don't think there are any other hands I would have played like that. You do need to be careful about assuming that just because someone is good assuming that they play just like you (or that 2 "good" players play the same way). Danny Negranu and Dan Harrington are both good (if I may use dramatic understatement), but they play in very different ways.
|
|
#36
08-10-2004, 08:04 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: What I thought was an interesting hand
Very first initial reaction: Watch out for the set of 8's.
|
|
#37
08-10-2004, 10:17 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: What I thought was an interesting hand
I would have thrown my chips at her. But that's only cuz I'm a lousy tournament player - I always call with second best.
As a matter o fact, I was just now in a similar sit. ('cept for the drunken LAG) at second round (15/30)of Stars $10 rebuy: AK in SB, 4 limpers, I complete. Flop KQ5, I check, BB leads out with 180, 3 callers, I push, 2100; stacks about equal and pot = 900. BB and 1 limper calls. BB turns over 55, and limper has KJo. I tell you - I suck at this game, only consolation: limper suck even more. (sorry for hijacking your thread, I still have a problem starting threads.) Her action, as you yourself pointed out was what rang alarm bells, din't seem the play of a good player (?) And then she had the nerve to complain for not being called (!)
|
|
#38
08-11-2004, 08:46 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: What I thought was an interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe you folded this hand. I just worry that the fact you were correct this time is going to lead you to be even more scared of the nuts next time. I would give you the benefit of the doubt if your fold was based on something you knew about the player, some tell he gave off at the table, anything. Folding based solely on the action is simply the wrong decision. It doesn't become right just because he had 88 this time, any more than calling with the worse hand becomes right if you draw out on the river. [/ QUOTE ] You don't think action itself can give you tells? It was my judgement that this person had a set. If I had pushed my chips in, I would have been betting when I thought, (rightfully) I was beat. I'm not saying that I would fold top two pair whenever someone went all in on me. Twice in other hands that tournament I pushed or called All ins with two pair and had the better hand. But in tis particular circumstances, based on what I thought the players thought of me, and my experience in tournaments, (mostly online) I thought I was facing a set. I am not sure how overriding my judgement and pushing in regardless when I think I am beat and accepting my fate when the 8's are flipped over is better then making a tough laydown when you believe you are beat.
|
|
#39
08-11-2004, 08:48 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: What I thought was an interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
this fold was very HELLMUTHIAN. my new favorite adjective. [/ QUOTE ] Honestly, I think thats a compliment. Hellmuth may act like a whiny female canine when he gets beat but he is still one of the more succesful tournament players out there.
|
|
#40
08-11-2004, 10:03 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: What I thought was an interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Would you, as a good player, call an early position raise from someone you view as tight, (I know its a big assumption that thats what they thought of me but I had reason to think so) with two other callers already in the pot with KQ? And would you flat call a raised pot with three people in it with AK when you got a maniac big stack calling station in it? I didn't think a good player would do either which is why I didn't think they just had top pair, and good kicker. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think I would do either. I'd muck the KQ and push the AK. However, I know good players would make the AK call specifically (esp. given the UTG raise); I don't really agree with it, but I think it is defensible. If, for some reason, I had decided to play AK like this, I would have played it just like the 88 player did. I was almost sure when I read this that you folded and then were shown AK. I have to say, if you were playing against me, that would have been a great fold, because I don't think there are any other hands I would have played like that. You do need to be careful about assuming that just because someone is good assuming that they play just like you (or that 2 "good" players play the same way). Danny Negranu and Dan Harrington are both good (if I may use dramatic understatement), but they play in very different ways. [/ QUOTE ] Yah I understand what you are saying. But absent a good read on another player, I tend to fall back on what I think most players would do. And I just didn't see most players just flat calling with AK here. You are right in that I could have been folding to AK or KQ here. But in my experience online, whenever there is action like this, it usually means someone caught a set or two pair and puts someone else on a hand like top pair and top kicker, and is hoping they won't lay it down. In my experience what I've always been shown in this kind of situation is not AK or KQ, but a set. Everytime this sort of situation came up online I pushed my stack in and died nobly, even tho I often suspected I was going to be sorry. This time I decided to trust my judgement and make the fold. So to me, it was either ignore my judgement and call hoping I am wrong, or follow my judgement and lay down a strong hand because I thought it was no good.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
