Preflop, out of position vs a tough player

[Clarkmeister]

In this exact situation, if I were on the button, I would 3-bet without hesitation.

Is position alone (the only variable that changed) strong enough to change a 3-bet all the way to a fold?

[Noo Yawk]

[ QUOTE ]
In this exact situation, if I were on the button, I would 3-bet without hesitation.

Is position alone (the only variable that changed) strong enough to change a 3-bet all the way to a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You gain more info from your position and have a better situation in which to manipulate the hand. Also, any tough player is going to recognize that you are someone he may not want to go into battle against, especially out of position. I think in this situation your edge goes from slightly down to slightly up.

I see nothing wrong with the way you played the hand, or how your tacticts change with position.

[beerbandit]

Remeber the BB is still left to act. They may have made the same observations you have and decide to raise.

[Michael Davis]

Of course, Josh might believe you have a wider range of 3-betting hands from the button than the big blind. Thus, the line between them converges again.

-Michael

[scalafab]

If you know he can read hands wouldn't you be able to decept him? and second wold Josh be such a good player if he was rivered out against a poor player?

[DoggSnott]

Hey Clarky,

I would also make like a cheap suit and fold. In too many ways you are behind before you even enter this hand. Against a tough player that is....

DOGG

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
In this exact situation, if I were on the button, I would 3-bet without hesitation.

Is position alone (the only variable that changed) strong enough to change a 3-bet all the way to a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is very close to the situation change i posted in my previous post. and i think it is because of all the advantages that come with position...even if he could read hands perfectly he's not in position to truly act on it and it doesn't mean YOU'LL do what he wants you to do even when he knows your hand. in my example you're the bb and EP is a few off the button open limping he raises and you have KJs...if you had KQs i think you know you'd 3bet so i knocked it down to see if that accounts for anything.

-Barron

[andyfox]

Well, then this has gotta be a fold for you because A) you're in the small blind; B) you're gonna see the flop anyway, if you just look; C) even though the guy who raised is trying to isolate, he knows Dave knows he's trying to isolate so he's not folding to Dave's overisolation 3-bet; and D) you'd have to post about the flop being Q-x-x giving you a four-flush and that you folded, risking the wrath of the assembled multitude here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Andy

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
In this exact situation, if I were on the button, I would 3-bet without hesitation.

Is position alone (the only variable that changed) strong enough to change a 3-bet all the way to a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it possible that people have discounted the possibility of 3-betting (as opposed to calling) too quickly here?

Is Josh capable of folding a hand like ATo if the flop comes rags? How is your table image running? Have you saved your Get Out of Jail Free And Re-Isolate card?

Sometimes I think it's *more* important to retain the initative in the hand when you are out of position.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In this exact situation, if I were on the button, I would 3-bet without hesitation.

Is position alone (the only variable that changed) strong enough to change a 3-bet all the way to a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it possible that people have discounted the possibility of 3-betting (as opposed to calling) too quickly here?

Is Josh capable of folding a hand like ATo if the flop comes rags? How is your table image running? Have you saved your Get Out of Jail Free And Re-Isolate card?

Sometimes I think it's *more* important to retain the initative in the hand when you are out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point in fact, I have 3-bet from the SB with KQ several times. But never against a quality preflop raiser. Once a fish raised, several mediocre players coldcalled, and I actually 3-bet KQ offsuit from the SB. Ed Miller was the BB and can attest to the hand (I won).

It is just that the postflop skill of my opponents is by far the most important variable to most of my preflop decision making. So when I say I considered raising, I really really did consider raising. I don't think its out of the question to call it a viable option, I just thought it was a bad one for this particular situation.