Preflop, out of position vs a tough player

[Clarkmeister]

So the game is 50-100. One mediocre player limps in EP and he is raised by MP.

We'll call MP Josh. Josh is definitely willing to isolate this guy light here, but it's not absurdly light, as he is still 3 off the button. He's got a hand of reasonable strength. Josh is playing well, using position, hand reading and selective aggression to put himself in excellent situations. Earlier, he raised the same limper from the CO with A7o and won, a play that I think was appropriate at the time, and I think Josh would admit that was at the low end of his isolating hands in that spot.

So Josh raises the limper from 3 off the button. It's folded to me in the SB with KsQs. I consider reraising. I consider calling. I consider folding. I think my hand is definitely better than his range of raising hands in this exact spot, but not by a huge margin. Not enough to warrant overextending myself preflop by 3-betting, and not enough to warrant calling in order to get involved postflop in this situation. I am out of position against a guy who can read hands well and is going to leverage that position to a 1sb postflop advantage on every hand. I think I have the best hand, and I fold anyway.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
and is going to leverage that position to a 1sb postflop advantage on every hand.

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Sorry if this is a dumb newbie question, but could you explain better what you mean with this number? A mathematical representation of the value of position seems like a powerful tool, but how exactly are you calculating his position to be worth 1sb.

[Gabe]

Close. Really close.

[Ulysses]

If he reads hands that well, I'd be inclined to call here.

[chesspain]

Wouldn't this be one of those situations where a coldcall is O.K.? I agree with you that your hand/situation might be a bit too precarious to three-bet, yet too strong to fold, especially when it will only cost you 1.5 to call.

When I ran a few typical hands through two dimes, giving the limper hands like mid pocket pairs, suited aces, and Bdwy cards, and giving the raiser hands like high, unsuited aces, your KQs usually had a least commensuarate pot equity (if that's the right term, meaning at least 33% chance to win?).

Consequently, since I can't see why Clark should be afraid of any player, I think he should at least coldcall, or possibly even three-bet in order to mix it up against these two opponents.

[Schmed]

Easy fold if they were off suited but I would think that a suited hand makes it a call there. The guy on the button reads hands well and is tricky so if you catch he'll know it and leave you to extract money from the weaker player. I don't think you would want to 3 bet because then it's HU against the player you already don't want to deal with.

Did you fold here because there would be opportunities to mix it up with the worse players at the table and you didn't want to push a marginal situation with the good player in the hand??

What if the poor player raised and the good player smooth called, would you fold then? (probably more so because you wouldn't like the good player smooth calling). What about poor player raising and unknown smooth calling??

[JPolin]

I like this fold. Alot. Mostly for reasons that Schmed alluded to in his post, most notably the ability to find better opportunities against the weaker players at the table.

As to the question of whether there is +EV to be found with either a cold call or a raise, it is unclear. I really don't like three-betting. A smooth call might enable the postflop headsup situation with the weaker player (as Schmed describes). In this case there is likely +EV to be found with the preflop call.

Still, you're talking about an investment of 1.5 or 2.5 SB's in a marginal (if potentially positive) situation. As a pursuit of intellectual curiosity calling might be interesting but I'd be worried about experimenting with the sample size needed to determine if this play is really profitable. If you know what I mean.

[James Boston]

[ QUOTE ]
I think my hand is definitely better than his range of raising hands in this exact spot, but not by a huge margin. Not enough to warrant overextending myself preflop by 3-betting, and not enough to warrant calling in order to get involved postflop in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this thinking. If you know he's lowering his raising standards, why not take advantage of this. KQs might not be the best hand for this situation, but it's probably strong enough to warrant a raise.

[ QUOTE ]
I am out of position against a guy who can read hands well

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You probably can't be the "table captain" here, but I think (depending on what falls obviously) you can still play the hand.

[Paluka]

I actually think the mediocre limper makes this a great spot to cold call. The big blind might even decide to call now that it will be 4 way action. Now you have a 4 way pot where a) you might have the best hand preflop and b) if you don't, KsQs is a pretty nice looking multiway hand.

[Philuva]

I would call because it will definitely be 3-way, and most likely 4 way action and with your hand most likely being good here. Plus, your hand is fairly simple to play.

Also, since the limper is in-between you and Josh, you can use him to your advantage to negate Josh's position edge.