Did I play my flush draw too weak?

[Guido]

Okidoki, 9/46=20% which means 1 out of 5. So if there are 10 or more 10BB in the pot when it's my turn I should raise right?

Guido

[Guido]

Just played this one:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, Button calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (12 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

This one was better right?

Not sure about this one:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB raises, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Should I 3-bet?

Turn: (10.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB

Guido

[MaxPower]

Man you flop a lot of flush draws.

Hand 1 - Very well done.

Hand 2 - I like the limp UTG with J9s. Nothing wrong with that. Here I think you do better in the long run by calling on the flop and trying to keep a few more people in, but it is not a huge difference. If someone 3-bets the flop you can cap it. A three bet on this board is very scary and will slow down your opponents too much.

[Saborion]

No. It's what, 4.1:1 that you'll make your flush. So you want at least 5 callers to make that bet a +EV bet. How much that is in the pot has nothing to do with it. It's about having enough callers to justify betting/raising.

I think...

[N4CER1]

Nut Flush draw?? He had 7/8.....??

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
Take a look at the Fundamental Theorem of Poker, it doesn't mention anything about odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think the odds come into play in determining whether a play is a mistake?

[southerndog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's all a question about odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, I think this is a silly statement. Poker is not just a matter of odds. Take a look at the Fundamental Theorem of Poker, it doesn't mention anything about odds. Anyway, the chances of being up a against a higher flush draw aren't large enough to change a call into a fold.

If I found out that you were capable of folding small flushes or flush draws on the turn, I will make sure that you have plenty of opportunities to do so.




[/ QUOTE ]

It is so about odds. If I saw what you had, I play my hand based upon what you have, AND the pot odds being given.

Let's say we're on the turn, and you are beating me with Ace high, or a pair of twos, if you bet, if the pot is big enough-- pot odds-- I call. If there is one other bet in there, I fold.

[sthief09]

Thought I'd add this to the conversation:

"When you raise to drive people out, you are really cutting down their odds. So you should raise with what you think is the best hand only when opponents are getting good enough odds to overcall or when you think an opponent will call a double bet even though he shouldn't even call a single bet" (128).

This is my interpretation. It could be way off...

There are 2 main parts of this statement:
1. Raise with the best hand when your opponents are getting odds to overcall. You have the edge, and you want to increase the volume. This is what you do against flush draws. Since you are getting a greater equity than the flush draw, you want more money in the pot. You aren't doing this to drive the draw out. However, if someone is getting odds to call a nut gut shot draw, then you can give him poor odds to call it. If he calls it anyway, you win.

2. Raise when opponents are forced to incorrectly call a double bet when they shouldn't even call a single bet.

This part has an incredible amount of importance in low limit games. If people are going to call your raise with a gut shot draw or with backdoor draws, you should be happy. They are making a huge mistake, so you're raising to put yourself in a win-win situation. If they call you win more money, but if they fold, you have a greater chance of picking up the pot.

Here is the example used in the book:
-You have the best hand right now
-The player to your right has just bet with nothing, and has no chance to win the pot
-The player to your right has 9-1 odds of beating you
-There was $100 in the pot before the player bet, and now there is $110
-You can call $10 or raise to $20
-There are 3 possibilities: you call, the player to your right calls (call him player X), you raise and X folds, or you raise and X calls

If you call, X is getting correct odds to call call, and in 10 hands, you'll win $120 9 times and lose $10 once. Net: $1070

If you raise, X is getting incorrect odds to call, and if he folds, you win $110 10 times for $1100

If you raise and X incorrectly calls, you win $130 9 times and lose $20 once. NET: $1,150

So the most profitable situation is when your opponent incorrectly calls a raise. So that is why low limit games are so easy to beat. These incorrect calls make you money.

However, you simply can't do this against a flush draw because the size of the pot compared to the bets is too big.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]

Let's say we're on the turn, and you are beating me with Ace high, or a pair of twos, if you bet, if the pot is big enough-- pot odds-- I call. If there is one other bet in there, I fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you should raise me.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]

You don't think the odds come into play in determining whether a play is a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes of course they do, but there are other factors. Even Sklansky and Malmuth admit that you should occasionally call even when the odds do not justify it.

Every decision you make in poker game is made in a context. A very important part of that context is the size of the pot. You need to combine that fact with some others like hand reading (which implicitly involves probability) when making decisions.

One other point. There a number of mistakes you can make that involve odds. The one most commonly made by bad players is calling when you do not have the odds. The one made by decent players (although rarely) is folding when you do have the odds, like in the example Clarkmeister gave (even though it was a hoax). Occassionly, an expert player will take advantage of the decent players willingness to make this mistake (by the way, I don't consider myself an expert).