Checkcalling the flop and turn with the nut flush

[WillMagic]

Flop: I think betting out would have been assinine, since even at microlimits people are going to assume that an open better at this flop has at least a high club or TP/good kicker

I disagree. Micro-limit players are horrible and don't consider what you have. When you flop a monster, you bet it in hopes of three-betting.

I think you are giving your opponents far too much credit.

However, I agree that going for the overcall is correct on the flop after you've checked - you certainly don't want to drive people out. This is why betting is so good - you don't drive people out while getting more $ in the pot.

Indeed, on single suit board, I have seen players (even at mircolimits) fold to a turn c/r even after having already placed one bet.

Again, you are giving them too much credit. Yes, occassionally a micro-limit player will wake up and make a good laydown. But more often he'll call your check-raise on a suited board with second pair weak kicker. I've seen that happen, and it happens a lot more than good laydowns.

So in conclusion, lose the fancy play and start firing at those pots.

Will

[bernie]

you have the button as the preflop raiser. this would make me bet out on the flop. it will look like you're betting a draw, some will call, then likely get raised.

you wouldve made alot more betting the flop. no one would put you on it as many would wait to the turn and try and c/r the button. they play flopped nuts much like a flopped set or trips.

i like to play these hands in a way where they can put me on a wide range of hands. you'd be suprised at how well this works and yet is still rarely done.

b

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop.

Essentially, what your hoping here is that you can trap people in the middle when someone in LP raises. With a preflop raiser, there is a significant probability of you getting in a third bet here.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am incredulous that some of you think that by betting out on the flop I would have trapped the whole field for two bets. There is a hugh difference between limpers calling a bet from PF button raiser on this board to whom the action was checked vs. calling a bet from an EP PF limper. Furthermore, just because the button raised PF, and would likely bet if checked to, is no guarantee that he will raise if he doesn't have a club.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I think betting out would have been assinine, since even at microlimits people are going to assume that an open better at this flop has at least a high club or TP/good kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

this would give them more reason to call, wouldnt it? they usually wont put you on a made hand at this point. especially if you're known to jam sets, draws, 2 pairs, high pair on the flop. not that i would jam all of these here, but they may not differentiate. they may even put you on a smaller flush and think they can crack you off if they're higher flush comes in. after all, why else are you 'protecting' on the flop?

it's far from asinine, it should be almost routine.

b

[Trix]

There is no guarantee that he will bet if checked to either.
Many .5/1 players wont even consider the fact that they might get trapped when calling your bet.

[bernie]

try it a few times, see what happens. you should be betting your unmade good draws here too. which helps get action when you do make a flop like this.

b

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
they may even put you on a smaller flush and think they can crack you off if they're higher flush comes in.


[/ QUOTE ]

Since the A,Q, and J of clubs are all out of play, I'm curious how many of my six opponents on the flop you are putting on possibly playing for a singleton, "higher" flush?

[bernie]

this is low limit. some will call with a non flush small pair hoping you're just bluffing. hell, some of these types are in my 10-20 game.

as one responder mentioned, you're giving these players too much credit for their play. alot more than a flush draw will call some bets here.

on LL tables, better players stand out much more than bad players. they can stick out like a sore thumb. in general, most are bad, and they blend together. most will call. you will/should know who the better players are on your table. if you're on a micro table, and you dont get much action on this type of flop play over and over, id look for a better game. OR look at just what hands youd are betting in this situation. i say this as a former 'nut' player, as they called me in an old room i used to play in, who used to play a gravy table. after awhile, i didnt get much action on my great hands. even to the biggest donators it was too obvious. widen the range and watch them call. baaahhhh'ing all the way to the slaughter.

you dont need all of them to call this. only a couple+ to really see the difference in profits. and more than makes up for the couple who fold. and in the micros, many will call. even 2 bets cold as you 3 bet the button if he raises.

what's asinine is what you will see when you go to showdown 4 way. 1 guy may have a decent hand, the other 2 you'll wonder what they were thinking.

b

[CMangano]

[ QUOTE ]
I think betting out would have been assinine, since even at microlimits people are going to assume that an open better at this flop has at least a high club or TP/good kicker. Given that there was a PF raiser, I assumed that he would bet from the button if it was checked to him.


[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of micro limit players are you playing against? If you bet here 99% of the players that would call the pf raisers bet will call your bet and be trapped when the pf raiser raises. Let me ask you this. If just had the Ac would you bet out here even if you knew the pf raiser would raise? I think most people would because they know most players in between will call and they will build themselves a big pot drawing to the nuts. Just because YOU know you have the nuts doesn't mean EVERYONE ELSE thinks you have the nuts when you bet.

As an example I played against a player the other night who called to the river. I had AA and he had KJ. I had a club and his K was a club. The board was 663 with two clubs and he called me all the way down. Unfortunatley for him it came runner runner clubs and he lost some chips. But the point is these players will stay in with all kind of miracle draws even when they are drawing dead. After all, they don't know they are drawing dead.

[WillMagic]

Well, if the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] was out there, you certainly missed a number of bets. He would have called any number of bets and raises on the flop and turn. And I've seen a lot stranger things than the 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] calling down here too.

You give your opponents at .50/1 far, far, FAR too much credit. I think you'd find yourself making the optimal play more often if you just assumed that the other players were robots which did nothing but press the call button.

Will