Checkcalling the flop and turn with the nut flush

[chesspain]

Paradise .5/1 game...I was playing in this fairly loose-passive game while also playing a 1/2 game...

I'm UTG and dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]


I call, EP2 calls, folded to MP who calls, LP calls, CO calls, button raises, SB folds, BB calls, all limpers call...seven to the flop for 14.5SB.


Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked to me and I check, and it's checked through to the button who bets, BB calls, I call, MP calls, LP folds, CO calls...five to the turn for 9.5BB.


[Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

We again all check it through to button who bets, BB calls, I call, MP calls, LP folds...four to the river for 13.5BB.


[Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to me and I bet, MP folds, button calls, BB folds.

It felt weird to not checkraise on either the flop or turn, although I felt I was maximizing my potential earnings by the way I played it. Would anyone have played it differently?

[spamuell]

Hey,

Would anyone have played it differently?

Yes.

I started to type a few reasons why a bet or (check)raise would have been in order on the flop or turn (and I'm prefer a bet), but I know you know them. Please explain why you thought this was the most profitable way of playing this hand.

[Trix]

Usually I would just Jam it and they would all think that I have a Queen...
I guess waiting to the turn is another way to play it.
Waiting till the river just seems weird, but when you did, why not checkraise ?
hmm...
Maybe betting the flop would have been a good choice too.
Hope one of the mid-high limit players will answer on this hand.

[ScottTheFish]

It looks to me like you missed at least one BB on the turn by not check-raising. You already had the button in for 1 bet and the other guy trapped in between. I'd rather have those 2 sure big bets than the iffy overcalls from the guys behind you.

It's rare to have more than 1 caller on the river anyway, so I doubt a turn raise affects your river action.

Maybe these .5/1 players aer tighter than normal, but I doubt you are scaring anyone off with a turn raise. They will call 2 cold if they have the Q or K of clubs, or 2 pair or whatever all day long.

[B Dids]

As was mentioned in another post- check raising at the micro levels is a bad move IMO. People will call.

Plus you would have hated yourself if somebody had flipped over QJ.

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]
As was mentioned in another post- check raising at the micro levels is a bad move IMO. People will call.


[/ QUOTE ]

You want people to call your raises when you have the nuts. Sometimes you raise just to get more money in the pot. I'll take my chances on that.

On the river I'd hate myself more for not jamming it vs. AQ or something than for the guy hitting his miracle 2-outer on the river.

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
As was mentioned in another post- check raising at the micro levels is a bad move IMO. People will call.


[/ QUOTE ]
And they are in they right to do so, but as long as they make a mistake and I gain when they do, I dont mind.

[CardCuda]

Hey Chesspain -

Just sat down at a $1-2 table @ Paradise with ya on Saturday but ya didn't stay long 1 orbit I think.

I would have raised the turn, this would have made more $ (IMO) BTN and BB would have most likely called 1 more here (since they're already invested) and you lost MP anyway. Bet the river with the same results as you had +2 more BB's.

Just my thoughts.

[chesspain]

Button showed K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and MHIG

My thoughts on the hand is as follows:

PF: With the table playing so loose and fairly passive, I felt that this was a safe openlimp.

Flop: I think betting out would have been assinine, since even at microlimits people are going to assume that an open better at this flop has at least a high club or TP/good kicker. Given that there was a PF raiser, I assumed that he would bet from the button if it was checked to him.

Consequently, after it comes back to me for one bet, the last thing I want is to force out the players after me and freeze up the button and BB, which is what a c/r would likely accomplish. Even if one or two players might have had strong enough hands to follow, it did not seem worth it to spook the others, at least without knowing if any of the players after me would peel off one more to see the turn.

Turn: Betting out on this rag would now look very suspicious, especially with three players plus the BB still left to act after me. Consequently, I took a chance that that button would bet again. When it came back to me, I now assumed even more strongly than on the flop that a c/r would likely force out both the MP and LP, who would be forced to call two cold, and could conceivably force out either the button and/or BB unless either was holding a club.

Indeed, on single suit board, I have seen players (even at mircolimits) fold to a turn c/r even after having already placed one bet. I had no reason to believe that both the button and the BB would call this checkraise. In fact, I thought if I checkraised I might collect, at most, one additional bet from either the BB or button and then maybe another bet on the river, and possibly none on the river if the only player(s) who comes to the river has a singleton club and a fourth club doesn't fall. Furthermore, why not allow the MP and LP the option of peeling off yet another call?

River: When the J paired the board, I was now afraid that no one without a J would bet at this board, although I believed that the button and anyone who had a Q would feel forced to call a bet. Hence my decision to bet out.

[WillMagic]

Bet the flop.

Essentially, what your hoping here is that you can trap people in the middle when someone in LP raises. With a preflop raiser, there is a significant probability of you getting in a third bet here.

Um...considering you checked the flop, checking the turn is right too, because a bet will confuse people and you won't get raised. But you should check-raise here, especially when you've got the BB trapped, and you may get the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to call two bets in either MP or LP.

I think betting the river is right.

But the important thing is, I think check-calling on the flop is definitely the wrong way to go. You want to bet out and hope to catch people in the middle to three-bet...you probably lost a significant # of BB's on this hand.

Will