Raising in shorthanded

[soda]

Interesting that you write this hand off as -EV. Surely it is a marginal holding, but a good player in a good game, can play this for +EV.

Add to it the extra action if you choose to play it and other players label you as "too loose" or "plays weak hands sometimes" and even at a break even level, you are making more money by playing this hand.

soda

[brianmarc]

I agree with much of your analysis. Follow up: What then would your minimum pair requirements be to open-raise in a 6-handed game? I use the following:
UTG: 77
CO: 66
L: 55
B: 22

Yeah, I know the 22 may sound weird - but the idea is that the blinds, if they play, can be bluffed out if they check post flop. If they bet and you don't hit, you fold. To make this strategy work you need rep as a TA; so sometimes I will simply check this hand and take the free card. If I hit the set, great; if not, my opponents know I am not on auto-pilot post flop. A further consideration: In many of my games someone will try a check raise here, assuming that the pre-flop raiser will automatically bet. (This does occur in about 90% of my games). By checking you can force the others to make their moves, and, if you don't hit, fold. Note: This latter situation is clearly more relevant when there are more than the blinds and the button involved).

[creedofhubris]

I have played with all_aces in a pokerroom 10/20 10-person ring game, and his play seemed strong to me. I don't remember any moves that struck me as too loose.

[KSU78]

Occasionally, 72os wins. Sometimes slowplaying will win more money than betting it out right.

I understand what you are saying. But I don't think it is quite that easy. First, you need to decide to choose to play it. Second, you have to decide how to play it. Third, eventually, you have to show it.

Deciding to play it requires the use of game theory. How to play it should require game theory as well. But showing it is a little different. We are talking about a short-handed game with, supposedly, solid players.

Now, if you can put someone on tilt with it, sure. Why not?

But that is not what we're talking about here... we're talking about routinely playing it.

[KSU78]

It is nice all_aces has friends. He needs them but be sure not to say anything that he doesn't think already about himself.

He made a post above that was contrary to the way that I play and what I believe. He got defensive that I said his play was a little loose. What he posted confirmed what I thought. That is an opinion. It is mine and it will go without redacting. It is unfortunate that he decided to take it to another level and claim it is personal and that I was trash-talking his play.

Also notice that "a little loose" has becomes "too loose".

Personally, I don't care if anybody thinks whether my play is tight or loose. It will differ from time to time. But what bothers me is how some one can profess to raising first-in with raise-worthy starting cards just because they want to play the hand or think they should play the hand. Raise-worthy is kind of like beauty, it is in the hand of the beholder.

I think I know something about this game. It pays my rent and all my living expenses. It just bothers me when some one wants to post something that I don't think is right. There are a lot of new people playing poker. Some of those players have turned to this forum to learn more about the game. They deserve to hear a difference of opinion. And I absolutely sure that some one out there has learned something in this thread or at least caused them to rethink some of the paradigms.

And lastly, all_aces is going to get more action. Isn't that something he would want?

[soda]

I'm not talking about routinely playing it. Well, not in the sense that I routinely call or raise with it.

Most times I play T8s, I muck it.

soda

[soda]

[ QUOTE ]


And lastly, all_aces is going to get more action. Isn't that something he would want?

[/ QUOTE ]

This depends entirely on the type of game it is.

If, as I suspect, open raising with K9s or A6s or 44 is a profitable play in his game, then, no, he probably does not want more action. These hands are really only profitable in large multiway pots (clearly not happening) or if your opposition is too TIGHT and folds too often either preflop or on the flop or turn.

I vote for the latter to be true in his particular game. My guess is that people just fold too much when he raises and thus he can make a killing just running over the table. If his opponents give him more action, they will essentially have appropriately adjusted their play. He will then need to adjust, which usually involves some type of learning curve and costs money.

So, my guess is that he does not want more action overall in these games. But, I've never seen it and never played it in and it's just a guess.

soda

[kiddo]

Good post.

As I said in my post, 44 is the weakest of the hands we are discussing, and as you, I really dont like to play the low pairs, you all always flopping overcards.

I havent played higher then 5/10 at Party Poker. Isnt the players at 5/10 at bit weaker then at 10/20? That is: its a bit easier to win with your 44 if noones is hit by flop and you dont always loose as much when you are behind?

I said in my post I always play 44 on button and in cutoff. That isnt true. And the main reason to play it is not to make $, it is to get some action on your other hands, because I normally play tighter then the others (seeing 30% of flops) and I dont want them to think I only play the nuts. I want them to think I am one in the crowd. I dont want them to think about me at all.

[CORed]

Interesting: I will open limp early with hands like small pocket pairs, suited connectors, Axs, if the players behind me will let me get away with it frequently. If not, I will fold such hands early. Of course, I will raise to isolate people who try to limp in front of me. However, if the players to my right are foolish enough to let me limp early, I will take advantage of their mistake.

[LKJ]

Man, I'm just happy to see someone else express annoyance at open-limping. I'm annoyed for all of the same reasons you expressed. When someone open-limps in front of me, I feel like they're just getting in my way or something. On the other hand, I do greatly appreciate the open-limp when I'm sitting in the BB with garbage...
Okay, that was nice news...if I'm nuts for getting annoyed by it, at least I'm not alone.