Raising in shorthanded

[soda]

I'll take the 44 because it is the easiest hand to explain. I also think it is the weakest hand of the four for this specific scenario.

Raising 44 in the Party 6 handed games is wrong most times, because...

With this hand, you prefer to be heads up with position over 1 opponent or you'd like at least 5 opponents. So, clearly raising will not accomplish the second objective. What about the first?

I will talk about the Party 10/20 games as I have the most experience here, if your blinds are sufficiently tight that they will fold often enough, then by all means - raise away.

From the button - Raising 44 here is bad if and only if both blinds call often enough. The problem in the 10/20 game at Party is that both blinds call frequently. So, always raising hands like this on the button will make them call even more frequently, which is the opposite of what you want. When they both call you are in deep trouble the 6 times out of 7 you do not flop a set.

So, even from the button, I do not always raise 44. I will occasionally open raise if the blinds are sufficiently tight. This is probably close to 50% of the time in the 10/20 game according my own personal criteria.

From the cutoff - open raising 44 here is much more dangerous and less profitable than from the button. You have another person yet to act and raising from this spot will very seldom win you the blinds even with a squeaky tight image. Often, the pot will be three way and sometimes even 4 way. If the button is aggressive at all and will three bet you with a wide variety of hands and is a good player, then you will do well to muck this hand 90% of the time or more.

Open raising with 44 in any earlier position is a poor play from a profit standpoint in most of these games (all?) and should be done only to mix up your play. If you raise this hand UTG, which I see many people doing and only the button calls you (a seemingly good result given the alternatives), you have managed to get the hand heads up. Great. But, you are out of position with a terrible holding. For myself, with my level of play, even this relatively good outcome is probably not a long term profitable one. Given position and my rediculously poor holding of 44 an average player can outplay me (read - earn more money) with any reasonable holding and certainly any cards that are worth calling a raise with. At best I'm 50/50 out of position and at worst I'm a 4:1 dog to the river. And it is very difficult to tell where I am unless I've flopped a set.

Those are my thoughts on this hand.

soda

[all_aces]

This is one of those posts that is so useless I almost decided not to bother responding to it. However curiosity got the better of me.

What is your username at Pokerroom? Don't worry, I think you'll find from my previous posts that I have enough class not to insult people's play by using their names.

The dangerous thing about these forums is that some guy who you don't know can anonymously say that he thinks you're too loose. Your first thought is to ignore this comment altogether, because it's so ridiculously vague and completely anonymous.

But then I think on some level you think to yourself: "Gee, maybe I really am too loose..." I average 5K/week cashout, and I'm thinking of changing my game. Not smart. Dangerous, in fact.

Anyways, what is your username? Also, did you play against me in the last while at the 25-50 tables, or was it before that at lower limits?

[all_aces]

Very thoughtful post soda, and I agree with you on all points. I'd like to add one more comment if I may, and that is about the texture of the game at the time. As you know, the same 5 players can play wild for 10 minutes, then all of a sudden everyone's folding preflop to the BB for 10 minutes, etc...

So to your criteria I would also add the consideration of whether the game is playing tight or loose at the time.

Regards,
all_aces

[KSU78]

I play short-handed games at Pokerroom.com all the time. I have played against you at $25-50 and at lower limits. I was just offering my perspective of your post. However, your subject line is a little out of whack.

It is interesting what people raise with at Pokerroom. One of the best first-in raises there was T8s UTG. I will only play that hand in the blinds. In fact, two of the four hands you mentioned in your post above, I routinely muck unless there are less than 5 dealt hands.

[all_aces]

"In fact, two of the four hands you mentioned in your post above, I routinely muck unless there are less than 5 dealt hands."

OK. Next time just say that. No need to get personal.

[KSU78]

There are two different schools of thought with raising in shorthanded games. The first one is always raise when first-in. The second is raise only with starting cards that warrant raises. I am one to align myself with the latter. Some starting cards require help. Some don't. Is it wise to raise with drawing hands pre-flop? Should you limp with QQ or JJ?

Let me use T8s UTG as an example. There are 16 cards that are going to beat that hand if it does not improve. It is also a one gapper which reduces the chance of making a straight. If the flush comes, there is a good chance of still being second best, particularly if the board is a 4-flush. Raising with this hand UTG is only begging for trouble. I see nothing wrong with limping if I really wanted to play this hand. When a player limps UTG, the pot usually remains unraised. I use T8s only as an example. I personally will muck it except for when I have it in the blinds and I am getting proper pot odds to play it.

Likewise, limping with QQ or JJ is sometimes a good play in short-handed games. If a pre-flop raise comes, re-raising will tend to narrow the field to two players with dead money in the pot.

The hands that are troublesome in short-hand games are AX, AXs and small pairs. I like to find tables where players are raising with these cards. Although these hands can win without improvement, if they go to the river, they stand a good chance of being beat. Again, raising with them is usually going to attract the type of hands that will beat them at the river.

[KSU78]

My opinion was, is, and will be your play is loose. Period. If it bothers you, either toughen up or go on tilt or both. Now that is personal.

[all_aces]

You still haven't told me your pokerroom username. Would you like to tell me what it is so I can trash your play on a public forum?

No, didn't think so.

It's much easier to pretend to be some kind of authority on other people's play when nobody knows who you are, isn't it... lol. Keep up the bravado, big guy. It's pretty easy to be brave and knowledgable from where you're standing.

As for going on tilt, I just don't do it. I leave the table after a few bad beats in a row, go for a walk, watch TV, whatever... and return when I'm thinking more clearly. You will probably tell everybody that I go on tilt all the time, but I think that the more you talk the less value your opinion has.

ps: If you did tell me what your username is, I still wouldn't talk about your play here, despite the fact that you're being a dick. I really think it's kind of a cheap thing to do. And the fact that you do it tells me a lot about you.

[stripsqueez]

interesting bits and pieces in your post KSU78 - i am firmly in the "never open limp" school - i am also in the "never over limp school" - your statement that limping under the gun is likely to result in an unraised pot may have some validity but not if i'm at the table

limpers annoy me - i am of the view that if you limp you are too stupid or chicken to make the blinds pay to see the flop and the blinds must always pay - there is no greater crime than the BB not paying to see a flop of 772 when he holds 72o

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[34TheTruth34]

If you really made 5K a week, you wouldn't care what some anonymous clown says about your game. Nor would you be thinking about changing it, because obviously whatever you're doing is working.