jason_t v. DeathDonkey

[jason_t]

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Hi Jason,

I think it's best that you check this turn.

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Kailia

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Hi Kailia,

Why is that Kailia? You don't think Chris will call my flop check/raise with hands worse than mine?

Kailia, I have missed you, although I suspect our paths have crossed many times in the past few months in spite of your absence from posting. Were you in Las Vegas in June? San Jose a few weeks ago?

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] always,

Jason.

[jason_t]

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I definitely think now that bet/fold is superior to bet/call.

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Don't know if this has been clarified in other threads, but against another known tpter on this board texture what is your range of raising hands on the end?

FWIW the way you've played this hand I would set up a river checkraise, but I'm more along the variety that might groan and call the third bet. Which might be a leak.

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Check/raising this river AND calling a 3-bet is terrible.

[Kailia Marie]

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Why is that Kailia? You don't think Chris will call my flop check/raise with hands worse than mine?

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Hi Jason,

It has more to do with what he is likely to do on the turn with his range of likely hands. Checking this turn against aggressive thinking players (which I assume DeathDonkey is) sets them up to make mistakes in this hand opposed to the other way around.

By checking, you allow him to miss a turn raise with a superior hand. Also, it might convince him to value bet a worse hand, like JT or even a small poket pair or whatever. (I find that many "good" aggressive players HATE missing value bets, so it's not like you would miss a bet on that street if he did have something.) Another advantage is to encourage him to bluff.

On the flip side of that coin, you, as a good aggressive player, probably hate missing bets too, but keep in mind that if this turn gets checked its likely that DeathDonkey does not have much anyways and would likely fold.


The main reason why I said checking the turn would be a smart choice is that it sets up the river. After the turn gets checked through, he may call a river bet with an A high he would have folded on the turn and the river may allow him to catch one of his "fake outs" and call a river bet that he would not have before (or not have been in the position to call since he folds a lot of turns).

So, in short, checking the turn against tough opponents can mimize your mistakes while at the same time probably not losing much (if any) value when you have the best hand and sets your opponent up for awkward river situations.

Of course, if your opponent is some random typical bad player, then by all means bet the turn because it is a very different scenerio.

Sorry if any of this sounds confusing. I'm not sure if I wrote this out clearly or not.

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Kailia, I have missed you, although I suspect our paths have crossed many times in the past few months in spite of your absence from posting. Were you in Las Vegas in June? San Jose a few weeks ago?

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I have been to both Vegas and SJ, though not at the times you mentioned and, as far as to my knowledge, we have not met before (though maybe some day that'll change [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]).

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Kailia

[Justin A]

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I've seen Mr. Donkey get waaaaay out of line with other 2+2ers (me, Jason, bukkake, GoT, Justin A), but more importantly he seemed to genuinely enjoy it.

It's just the difference between a gutshot vs. OESD on the flop and the likelihood of QJ.

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Wasn't that a drunk 4/8 game though?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

check and raise.

i like bumping long threads.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

kailia,

where have you been?

this is a well thoughtout post and is actually a pretty key NL concept. also in higher stake tough limit games, i've actually used this line (though i'm not quite sure it works as well as you make it out ot be). it works especially nice against the guys that love to wait till the turn to make their moves. checking to them really deflates their action and their ability to throw you into tough decisions.

[Entity]

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Why is that Kailia? You don't think Chris will call my flop check/raise with hands worse than mine?

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Hi Jason,

It has more to do with what he is likely to do on the turn with his range of likely hands. Checking this turn against aggressive thinking players (which I assume DeathDonkey is) sets them up to make mistakes in this hand opposed to the other way around.

By checking, you allow him to miss a turn raise with a superior hand. Also, it might convince him to value bet a worse hand, like JT or even a small poket pair or whatever. (I find that many "good" aggressive players HATE missing value bets, so it's not like you would miss a bet on that street if he did have something.) Another advantage is to encourage him to bluff.

On the flip side of that coin, you, as a good aggressive player, probably hate missing bets too, but keep in mind that if this turn gets checked its likely that DeathDonkey does not have much anyways and would likely fold.


The main reason why I said checking the turn would be a smart choice is that it sets up the river. After the turn gets checked through, he may call a river bet with an A high he would have folded on the turn and the river may allow him to catch one of his "fake outs" and call a river bet that he would not have before (or not have been in the position to call since he folds a lot of turns).

So, in short, checking the turn against tough opponents can mimize your mistakes while at the same time probably not losing much (if any) value when you have the best hand and sets your opponent up for awkward river situations.

Of course, if your opponent is some random typical bad player, then by all means bet the turn because it is a very different scenerio.

Sorry if any of this sounds confusing. I'm not sure if I wrote this out clearly or not.

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Kailia, I have missed you, although I suspect our paths have crossed many times in the past few months in spite of your absence from posting. Were you in Las Vegas in June? San Jose a few weeks ago?

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I have been to both Vegas and SJ, though not at the times you mentioned and, as far as to my knowledge, we have not met before (though maybe some day that'll change [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]).

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Kailia

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You really need to post more.

[jason_t]

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Ocean's 11 8/16, six handed or so with bakku too. I haven't been at the table long, and DeathDonkey and I haven't played much together before.

DeathDonkey opens in the CO and I call in the BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check/raise and DeathDonkey calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I bet, DeathDonkey raises and I call.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I did one thing, DeathDonkey says I should have done another and now I think a third line may be best. Sup?

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I check/raised and folded to a 3-bet.