Why is 1/2 like WAY harder than .50/1?

[@bsolute_luck]

this is a long post and figuring i won't offer much new i will say this:

part of moving up is to learn and move back down. i play 1/2 6-max and was winning at it and thought "these guys are easy, i'm moving to 2/4". and i got crushed! (yes bad cards and river suckouts blah blah), BUT i did learn more about value betting, that i don't have to have TPTK to win, and i really had to work on my hand/player reads (especially since i play at Titan and pokertracker doesn't work and their note-taking area is very small) but also because people bet draws, donked 2nd pair into preflop raisers, and c/r less than top pair.

i would have been stupid to stay up there and try to learn at those limits plus my bankroll was suffering BADLY (i was underrolled to begin with), HOWEVER, i was able to take what i learned and apply it to 1/2 and i'm realizing how many winning hands i was missing and my play is much better.

conclusion of the rant:
1. don't feel you have to stay up at that limit.
2. don't feel it is wasted just because you have lost a little bit.
3. ALWAYS be learning.

regarding shillx hand: i 3-bet the flop and go from there. no point in betting the turn or river at this point. we're only folding hands we beat unless he's calling with a busted straight draw or a T.

[car ramrod]

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He could have a high pocket pair, but be one of those players who doesn't like raising preflop. He could have a low pocket pair, having missed the flop, and be betting for no apparent reason or be bluffing. He could have overcards and be bluffing, he might have a full house and have tried to check raise the turn.


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So if he has over cards, or a low poket pair, that 2nd J is going to scare him, he will probably fold to our turn bet. But if we check through, he may now be tempted to bet the river. Even if he has a high pocket pair, that 2nd J may still scare him into folding the turn. I still stand by this reasoning, but I would like to hear from Shillx.

[Jeff P]

I just want to echo a statement that others have made about 1/2. I find that it is much easier to find a good table on the 9-max tables than the full 10-handed tables.

Another piece of information that has been repeated many times, is that table selection matters, and seat selection matters. I used to just sit down at the first available table, and start playing. I look for people I've put on my buddy list. I will also pick out 4 tables up near the top of the average pot ranking, open PT and PAHUD, then go get a coke or something and let PT import the observed hands. If I find a table that looks good, I join the waiting list. Then, if the seat that opens up is not to my liking, I'll pass it up and wait for a better one.

[zephed]

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Villain's turn check (after check-raising the flop) means one of two things:

1. He's scared of the pair of Js on board.
2. The J helped him and he's getting tricky.

In neither case is it necessarily a good idea to bet the turn. In case (1), villain may very well fold to a turn bet, but if you show weakness by checking behind you might induce a bluff on the river or at least persuade villain that your hand isn't *that* good so he'll call a river bet even though he wasn't calling a turn bet. In case (2), betting the turn is a mistake for more obvious reasons.

Now villain comes out betting on the river. There are three possible holdings for villain:

1. A bluff. Not likely given the earlier play, but not inconceivable either. Raising the river doesn't accomplish anything in this case.

2. A made hand that you beat. It's possible that villain c/r'd the flop with just a weaker J than yours, got "tricky" with his "lock hand" on the turn, and now wants to get paid on the river. Raising the river is good if this is what is happening.

3. Villain has you beat. A flopped two pair or set definitely fits villain's flop action. It's also the sort of hand that improved so much on the turn that he wanted to give you a chance to catch up and/or get you to pay off a river bet. Raising the river is a spew in this case.

I guess Brad is arguing that (1) and (3) are more likley than (2)?

Or maybe I'm just totally off-base. I'm not yet comfortable with "inducing a bluff" plays, although it something I'm working on.

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I think this is a great explanation by JRZ and exactly what I was thinking shillx was doing in the hand.

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I think you all are overanalyzing this and giving the villain way too much credit. It would be a big help to have a read on him, but assuming an average microlimits player, he could have a large number of hands. He could have a high pocket pair, but be one of those players who doesn't like raising preflop. He could have a low pocket pair, having missed the flop, and be betting for no apparent reason or be bluffing. He could have overcards and be bluffing, he might have a full house and have tried to check raise the turn.

With no reads on this opponent, I have 3 J's with an ace kicker, I'm betting and raising for value.

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I agree with you. I never played 1/2 full much, and it was long ago. I would bet this at .5/1 and 2/4 full every single time. I am a little out of touch with full ring play though.

I wouldn't rule out villain holding a ten, not to mention a weaker jack, especially if he's unknown. Also, if we're behind, we still have a few outs.

Against:
-JT (3 combos), we have 3 outs to win, 2 to tie.
-J3 (3 combos), 6 outs to win, 2 to tie.
-TT (3 combos), 7 outs to win.
-33 (3 combos), 7 outs to win.

We are ahead of KJ, QJ, J9-J4, AA-QQ, 99-44, 22, AT, KT, QT, KQ, Q9, 98 etc.

99-44, J9-J4, 22 are probably not checkraising this flop, but it is still possible.

That leaves AA-QQ, KJ, QJ, perhaps AT, KT, KQ, Q9, and 98 as hands that are likely to checkraise our flop bet. Most of these are calling our turn bet.

AA-3 combos
KK-6
QQ-6
KJ-4
QJ-4
AT-9
KT-12
KQ-16
Q9-16
98-16
(92 total hands here)
Pare down this list to whatever you think is appropriate.

There are a total of 23 top pair or better hands we beat.
21 second pair hands we beat.
KQ itself, which is a strong hand on the flop (OESD + overcards, which a TAG would probably raise), has 16 combos.
Q9 and 98 have 32 combos together.

I bet this turn, and call down after a check-raise. I don't think it's close.

[Shillx]

Okay I played some 1/2 last night and I was somewhat impressed with the level of play. I thought it would be worse. Actually I should say that the preflop play seemed decent but the postflop play was poor.

As for the hand I presented:

Let's say that you bet a flush draw on the flop (say Q73) and you get a few callers. What is the best card (you miss the flush) for you to bet again on 4th? A queen. When he checks the paired top card, it is tough to put him on a bluff or semi-bluff. If I don't have a jack, it will be very hard for me to call here so something is up when he checks this card. This was my thought process at the time.

Anyway I probably should have bet and paid it all off. It was just one of those spots that you see such as when a PFR checks behind on a flop. You just know that he has something good. He had TT and MHWNG.

Brad

[zephed]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay I played some 1/2 last night and I was somewhat impressed with the level of play. I thought it would be worse. Actually I should say that the preflop play seemed decent but the postflop play was poor.

As for the hand I presented:

Let's say that you bet a flush draw on the flop (say Q73) and you get a few callers. What is the best card (you miss the flush) for you to bet again on 4th? A queen. When he checks the paired top card, it is tough to put him on a bluff or semi-bluff. If I don't have a jack, it will be very hard for me to call here so something is up when he checks this card. This was my thought process at the time.

Anyway I probably should have bet and paid it all off. It was just one of those spots that you see such as when a PFR checks behind on a flop. You just know that he has something good. He had TT and MHWNG.

Brad

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Ha, yeah, I know what you mean. Especially when a lag pulls it.

I may have to reconsider calling down after getting check-raised, but I definitely see the river.