Flopped Draw--Would you play it the same?

[ACBob]

Jeffage,

I liked how you played the hand. Just one of those misses. Move on to the next hand.

Bob Lewis

[Jeffage]

I think this is a great post...my gut feeling was to raise this strange stop and go, but then I thought my opponent was looking for 3 bets possibly and you know what? I also thought that sometimes you need to actually make a hand to take down a pot and I felt this was one of those times. I feel a raise is good against the right person but doing this indisciminately can be quite costly...I agree that failing to raise the turn, a river bet is begging to be called.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

Another excellent post...what percentage of the time would you make this turn raise against a relatively unknown opponent? Would this be your default play in this spot when faced with the strange turn bet...do you worry he is looking for 3 bets and you might just be triple-charging yourself to suck out? I agree with your river thoughts considering my turn play.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Jeffage]

"Will a river bluff buy you the pot often enough? I think so, but what do you think?"

I dunno...I'm interested in exploring these gray areas in poker. I think if he missed his flush he would bet the river again...the pot is big enough that if he checks out of position he is just conceding it, the only way to win is bet. When he checks after betting the turn, my thought is that he is planning to call down with some kind of pair (looking to induce a weak bet or bluff).

Jeff

[Jeffage]

I think inducing a bluff is a relatively basic play at this level. I do have to give some Party players credit...while there are many bad players in these games, some are fantastic and some loose players happen to play extremely well/tricky postflop. There are many fish but also many sharks.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

Well, the result of this hand upset me, I'm not gonna lie (mostly because it was very unexpected). On the river, he checked and I checked behind. He showed A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a shocking ace high to beat my king high. So I felt like a complete idiot. But honestly, I think he may have called the river with the ace if I bet. I would like more thoughts on whether most would think a turn raise is default with this betting sequence or what? I think it is good in spots but doing it automatically sounds like an expensive way to play a draw against an opponent who might want 3 big ones on the turn. I think I may be getting mad because I think I could have finessed my way to winning the pot, but maybe sometimes you need a hand to win in these heads up spots. Anyone feel like they try moves too often in these spots?

Thanks for responses and more are welcome.

Jeff

[Gabe]

Unless there is something you left out of your post, I would raise the turn.

[Coilean]

ragedyandy,

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't his opponent re-raise the flop before betting the turn? He must have hit the turn. I think hero is looking at either 2 pair or a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

For one thing, the 5 appears an unlikely card to have helped opponent's hand much. For another, if opponent indeed had a big hand, he would probably reraise the flop and lead the turn (the best line, IMO), or smoothcall the flop and go for a check raise on the turn. I think it's more likely he has a modest (probably weakish K or decent J) hand and doesn't want to let Jeffage take a free card (in case he was raising with a flush draw). He didn't reraise the flop because he doesn't like his hand much, but he bet the turn because he feels he still might have the best hand.

[Coilean]

Jeffage,

[ QUOTE ]
what percentage of the time would you make this turn raise against a relatively unknown opponent?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an unknown, I think you might as well always make the raise, and see what happens. The key here is that that should be a pretty scary board for him as it could easily have hit you, and he played his hand in a fairly wishy washy manner inconsistent with a big hand unless he's fairly tricky. And really, if he folds or calls it down with an ace high, that's also some good information to have.

It's more against observant regular opponents that I would take some care not to overuse the semibluff. Obviously, you should also adjust based on any recent history and/or knowledge of your opponent, so against weak tight players you can make this play until they notice and start calling you down with weaker hands, and against loose tenacious players you rarely do it unless you notice them making a few folds. It's just another one of those balancing acts you do when you are trying to play well.

[MrGo]

I think a bet on the turn by the opp. is an indicator bet. I would put him on weak king. I think I would re-raise the turn here...hoping he lets go of his hand. By you calling the turn and him checking the river, I believe that screams weak kicker. You bet, he calls.