|
|
#11
08-28-2005, 05:51 AM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: Is this call down too weak? Is it too loose?
[ QUOTE ]
How about some stop n go action on the turn, folding to a raise? [/ QUOTE ] I like this Loafer. I NEVER donkbet anymore. It was a leak of mine. But I took the whole move out of my arsenal. Thanks for giving me something important to think about. I think it's about time to add that line back, under the right circumstances. -D 
|
|
#12
08-28-2005, 06:12 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this call down too weak? Is it too loose?
[ QUOTE ]
You have KTo with 2 limpers in front. You were almost guaranteed at least a 5 way pot if you entered. From what I know, thats a speculative hand at best in this situation. I'd strongly consider folding considering the fact KTo sucks in multiway pots. Any views on this? [/ QUOTE ] The circumstances that you have written above make this an ideal time to play this hand.
|
|
#13
08-28-2005, 07:31 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this call down too weak? Is it too loose?
I would bet the turn, he must not have AK, QK, AA.
He could easily have QQ, JJ, clubs even UI broadways. If he raises and it limits the field I call down, else I might check/fold the river UI on a scary rivercard.
|
|
#14
08-28-2005, 07:45 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this call down too weak? Is it too loose?
[ QUOTE ]
I NEVER donkbet anymore. [/ QUOTE ] dude, that is the greatest part of my arsenal [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] LOVE THE DONKBET [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] You have KTo with 2 limpers in front. You were almost guaranteed at least a 5 way pot if you entered. From what I know, thats a speculative hand at best in this situation. I'd strongly consider folding considering the fact KTo sucks in multiway pots. Any views on this? [/ QUOTE ] limping isn't bad, but i actually like a PFR to buy button and limit the field if possible.
|
|
#15
08-28-2005, 08:03 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this call down too weak? Is it too loose?
[ QUOTE ]
limping isn't bad, but i actually like a PFR to buy button and limit the field if possible [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] I'm not too good at verbalizing my thoughts when it comes to poker yet, but what i was thinking is this: 5-way pot with K10o even at a fishy table is risky, and the chance you are dominated if you make TP is definitely there. A PFR might fold some crappy hands that could draw out on you, but you wont fold any of the hands that have you dominated. I'm still strongly considering folding this one preflop. IMO it will often be -EV to play these kinds of hands. Am I the only preflop weakling? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
|
|
#16
08-28-2005, 08:17 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this call down too weak? Is it too loose?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] limping isn't bad, but i actually like a PFR to buy button and limit the field if possible [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] I'm not too good at verbalizing my thoughts when it comes to poker yet, but what i was thinking is this: 5-way pot with K10o even at a fishy table is risky, and the chance you are dominated if you make TP is definitely there. A PFR might fold some crappy hands that could draw out on you, but you wont fold any of the hands that have you dominated. I'm still strongly considering folding this one preflop. IMO it will often be -EV to play these kinds of hands. Am I the only preflop weakling? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] you seem to live in fear. you easily have more than 33% equity against 2 open-limping fish plus position (pokerstove has KTo at ~44% against 2 random hands). you would like to buy button for great position and folding any Q,J,A to buy outs for your Ts is great.
|
|
#17
08-28-2005, 08:44 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this call down too weak? Is it too loose?
[ QUOTE ]
you seem to live in fear. you easily have more than 33% equity against 2 open-limping fish plus position (pokerstove has KTo at ~44% against 2 random hands). you would like to buy button for great position and folding any Q,J,A to buy outs for your Ts is great. [/ QUOTE ] I agree that you might have more than 33% equity against 2 limpers, but you also have to consider the ones behind you. There's no way you'll be 3-handed on the flop in this situation if you limp, and as I previously noted, KTo doesnt do too well in multiway pots. So if you're up against 4 or 5 opponents you're most likely in trouble. I cant imagine your EV would be much positive in that situation (although I dont know the exact numbers). I think raising might be a better alternative than limping, but I still strongly consider folding this one. [ QUOTE ] you seem to live in fear [/ QUOTE ] No, i just dont like playing -EV hands
|
|
#18
08-28-2005, 09:10 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this call down too weak? Is it too loose?
[ QUOTE ]
and as I previously noted, KTo doesnt do too well in multiway pots. So if you're up against 4 or 5 opponents you're most likely in trouble. [/ QUOTE ] Who says KTo doesn't do well in multiway pots? My win rate for this hand is 0.45. That's pretty respectable. You need to consider your opponents when playing this hand. If tight players have limped in then I might fold this as they may have limped with hands that dominate KTo. But when some loose players limp in front of me and I'm in late position, then I'll give this a shot. Particularly if you play better postflop than your opponents. If the blinds are really tight then I'll raise this.
|
|
#19
08-28-2005, 09:11 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this call down too weak? Is it too loose?
I don't like the reasoning some have given for a turn bet, they state they hope villain raises to knock out the field, he usually only raises when we're drawing and we'd rather not knock them out if that's the case. The only reason I can see to bet the turn is so it doesn't get checked through.
Let's say hands he could well check through are AT[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], AJ[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], AQ[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], or QQ. I'll forget about JJ, just pretend he's 50% likely to raise the flop if he has QQ or JJ which gives us the same range as QQ. Hands he will bet again are KJ+, KK+, and he will probably only raise with these. This leaves us with 9 hands he checks through and 31 he bets. Furthermore I'll assume he bets 1/2 of the time when he has pocket queens, giving us 7 hands he'll check and 33 he'll bet. I was gonna work some other things out but I'm tired. Note I'm not saying a turn bet is wrong, I'm just saying a turn bet for the reason of hoping villain raises is wrong. I was going to try and figure out why a turn bet is good or bad but hopefully someone will chime in with some numbers, for instance how much on average we'll be putting in when we bet and how much equity we have when it happens. Also how much value we lose if it gets checked through. I might try and figure it out tommorow if noone else does.
|
|
#20
08-28-2005, 11:29 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Is this call down too weak? Is it too loose?
[ QUOTE ]
No, i just dont like playing -EV hands [/ QUOTE ] well, i've shown you that you have enough equity (translation: +EV) to at least play this hand if not a raise with it. it really sounds like you're looking at this hand with tunnel vision based solely on the cards in your hand. 2 factors make playing this hand +EV: 1. position 2. read of opponents behind you we aren't talking about a weak-tight player that limps UTG or that we are considering open limping UTG. Could part of your thinking also be attributed to the fact Button raises behind you?...possibly. even IF we knew he had AQs, we are putting in 25% of the money and have ~27% equity = +EV. i really don't know howelse to explain it.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
