|
|
#31
08-15-2005, 02:18 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: OTB with overdefensive blinds
[ QUOTE ]
just my opinion, but this isn't enough info for me. OOP, can they find a fold postflop? what type of hands will they fold? will they call down with any piece? Can you find a fold? Under what circumstances? Say both blinds call and the flop is Txx[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and the action goes bet/raise...? Is a continuation bet coming on any flop? if not, what is the least hand you're willing to bet with? Are either blinds capable of a bluff-betting or CR'ing a flopped A vs you, i.e. what is your image? [/ QUOTE ] These are definite considerations above and beyond what the tendencies of the blinds happen to be. If your image is ruined, raising is especially bad. If it is dominant and you've shown down monsters lately, by all means raise! Will they fold the turn if they whiff again? If so, raise it PF and bet the flop. My advice of open-calling is to get the best value out of true calling stations: guys who will almost never fold PF and will basically never fold w/any piece of the board postflop. Open raising T8s OTB versus those guys is nothing short of a money-losing mistake. Not a huge one, but a mistake nonetheless. 
|
|
#32
08-15-2005, 02:27 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: OTB with overdefensive blinds
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Because you don't want to get raised preflop. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] You limp, SB completes, BB raises. That sucks. Got it?
|
|
#33
08-15-2005, 02:28 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: OTB with overdefensive blinds
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Because you don't want to get raised preflop. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] You limp, SB completes, BB raises. That sucks. Got it? [/ QUOTE ] I raise, SB cold calls, BB 3-bets. That sucks.
|
|
#34
08-15-2005, 02:33 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: OTB with overdefensive blinds
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Because you don't want to get raised preflop. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] You limp, SB completes, BB raises. That sucks. Got it? [/ QUOTE ] I raise, SB cold calls, BB 3-bets. That sucks. [/ QUOTE ] Right. That's why I said it's fine if they're passive. See?
|
|
#35
08-15-2005, 02:42 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: OTB with overdefensive blinds
Makes sense to me, but what about keeping the pot small until we see a flop versus the loose-aggressive opponents? Isn't it much better to see a flop with 3 to 6SB in there (meaning you open call and call a raise if necessary) than it is to see a flop with 7 to 9SB in there? If you hit a nice flop, you'd like to hang the aggro opponent with his own aggression and have him continue betting into you -- since by FTOP his doing so in a small pot would be wrong. His continued betting may not be nearly as wrong if there are 8 or 9 SB in the pot on the flop.
The part about it being ok when they're loose-passive makes total sense to me. But I don't see why this doesn't also apply to loose-aggressive types.
|
|
#36
08-15-2005, 02:46 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: OTB with overdefensive blinds
I believe it's good to limp marginal hands vs that specific type of players. If you bet, they will call no matter what they have. The pot will be biggger 3way pot. They will be "involved" in the pot and will try harder to win it. I think it is correct and more profitable to "over" limp vs them because very often the pot will be kept very small and they will be less intersted to call the flop with no pair with such a tiny pot and they will give up more often. But if you do that often, you will have to limp big hands too...
|
|
#37
08-15-2005, 03:00 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: OTB with overdefensive blinds
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] T8s I think is a PERFECT example of when open calling is probably best at least from a theoretical standpoint [/ QUOTE ] What theory is it you refer to ? [/ QUOTE ] I've cited the source: Sklansky's HEPFAP commentary on "when the blinds are very loose" in the Heads Up/Shorthanded section of the book. To go a little further, he said you'd never normally make this "tourist" play, but it is best in an EV sense in some limited cases when the blinds basically never fold. The open call line maximizes your ability to extract money postflop in position with a marginal hand like A3o or T8s, while commiting the minimum necessary pre-flop. I'd quote more of the section now, but I'm at work and don't have access to my book. Implied odds are a big part of it. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I am a lonely voice in advocating this, but I think the data really does support it. [/ QUOTE ] What data? [/ QUOTE ] "Data" was the wrong term for me to use. I have not run sims on this, but I presume there is a solid mathematical underpinning to what Sklansky said in the section I mention above. I would like to run some TTH sims, but I need to TTH first in order to do so. Its not that I just blindly trust Sklansky here... its that the whole notion of implied odds against outright loose calling stations is very sensible given the games I play in. The "value" in open value raising T8s OTB vs blinds that won't fold is much smaller than the value I get by saving 1 SB and then pumping when I do hit (or when I know they've missed and may fold). I just want to win the most $$ -- and I'm not afraid to do unpopular or un-TAG or whatever kinds of things like open calling OTB to do it. Raising for the sake of aggression alone is stupid - not that you (Trix) have advocated this, but others have (they say "but, but, but, we need to be tight and aggressive! Calling is not aggressive therefore we can't do it here! We need to be aggressive so our numbers look sexy!" and its all nonsense in this special case). [/ QUOTE ] I think what trix is trying to say is just because Sklansky wrote it down doesn't lift it to status of theory. last time i checked my DB the average 6 maxer (5/T) defended his BB vs a steal ~75% of the time. and i think in the universe Skalansky was hypothosizing about the players were a bit brighter postflop compared to the ones populating our universe.
|
|
#38
08-15-2005, 03:09 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: OTB with overdefensive blinds
FWIW, PJN referenced this post in #sstakes, and this was part of the discussion:
<Trixx> dont remind me of that <CallMeIsh> raise <kurosh> i literally just read through hefap an hour ago and it says to limp that [censored] when the blinds are very loose <CallMeIsh> it said to limp A3o and 22 <CallMeIsh> those hands are a million miles away <CallMeIsh> from T8s in how they play <Trixx> T8s is too good imo <CallMeIsh> true <CallMeIsh> and <CallMeIsh> if you think about it <CallMeIsh> hands like A3 and 22 <CallMeIsh> tend to be the best on the flop <CallMeIsh> but are hard to play <CallMeIsh> because <CallMeIsh> you cant fold a lot of worse hands, and better hands are normally calling <Trixx> they bad for reverse implied odds <CallMeIsh> exactly <CallMeIsh> and T8s is the opposite <Trixx> tbh, i dont hate a limp with A2 if they literally defend every time
|
|
#40
08-15-2005, 03:38 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: OTB with overdefensive blinds
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Because you don't want to get raised preflop. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] You limp, SB completes, BB raises. That sucks. Got it? [/ QUOTE ] I raise, SB cold calls, BB 3-bets. That sucks. [/ QUOTE ] Right. That's why I said it's fine if they're passive. See? [/ QUOTE ] Oh I already understand that. It was [ QUOTE ] But just for shits and giggles, try raising. You might like it. [/ QUOTE ] that confused me.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
