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#1
08-07-2005, 05:40 PM
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Re: Thinking of moving up to $5/$10: Comment on $3/$6 stats
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also, the W$SD can never be too high. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this statement [/ QUOTE ] Huh???????????? [/ QUOTE ] You have to make marginal calls to win...so if you're only 20% to win a hand in an 8BB pot, you should call, it's +EV, even though it brings down your W$SD [/ QUOTE ] If you know what your opponent holds, why would you ever see a showdown with a losing hand? 
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#2
08-07-2005, 05:44 PM
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Re: Thinking of moving up to $5/$10: Comment on $3/$6 stats
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also, the W$SD can never be too high. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this statement [/ QUOTE ] Huh???????????? [/ QUOTE ] You have to make marginal calls to win...so if you're only 20% to win a hand in an 8BB pot, you should call, it's +EV, even though it brings down your W$SD [/ QUOTE ] If you know what your opponent holds, why would you ever see a showdown with a losing hand? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure why you're asking this, but I did think of an answer: You bet, he calls. /mc
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#3
08-07-2005, 05:48 PM
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Re: Thinking of moving up to $5/$10: Comment on $3/$6 stats
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also, the W$SD can never be too high. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this statement [/ QUOTE ] Huh???????????? [/ QUOTE ] You have to make marginal calls to win...so if you're only 20% to win a hand in an 8BB pot, you should call, it's +EV, even though it brings down your W$SD [/ QUOTE ] If you know what your opponent holds, why would you ever see a showdown with a losing hand? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure why you're asking this, but I did think of an answer: You bet, he calls. /mc [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, yeah. You could make failed bluff/bluff raise attempts. But it doesn't change the fact that you want your W$SD as high as possible. And obviously, you'd want all your bluff attempts to work, not have him call your 3 high bet with 4 high. I can't even believe this requires discussion.
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#4
08-07-2005, 08:32 PM
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Re: Thinking of moving up to $5/$10: Comment on $3/$6 stats
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also, the W$SD can never be too high. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this statement [/ QUOTE ] Huh???????????? [/ QUOTE ] You have to make marginal calls to win...so if you're only 20% to win a hand in an 8BB pot, you should call, it's +EV, even though it brings down your W$SD [/ QUOTE ] If you know what your opponent holds, why would you ever see a showdown with a losing hand? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure why you're asking this, but I did think of an answer: You bet, he calls. /mc [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, yeah. You could make failed bluff/bluff raise attempts. But it doesn't change the fact that you want your W$SD as high as possible. And obviously, you'd want all your bluff attempts to work, not have him call your 3 high bet with 4 high. I can't even believe this requires discussion. [/ QUOTE ] yeah if your opponent played with his cards face up, you should rarely lose a SD, only when you bluff at the river when he's weak and he still calls but um your opponents don't play with their hands face up, so you make estimates on what they hold, what you beat, and what kind of odds you are getting folding the river for 1bet HU, when you win 20% of the time in a 10BB pot is a huge error .. but it drops your W$SD to make the profitable call
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#5
08-07-2005, 09:48 PM
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Re: Thinking of moving up to $5/$10: Comment on $3/$6 stats
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also, the W$SD can never be too high. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this statement [/ QUOTE ] Huh???????????? [/ QUOTE ] You have to make marginal calls to win...so if you're only 20% to win a hand in an 8BB pot, you should call, it's +EV, even though it brings down your W$SD [/ QUOTE ] If you know what your opponent holds, why would you ever see a showdown with a losing hand? [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure why you're asking this, but I did think of an answer: You bet, he calls. /mc [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, yeah. You could make failed bluff/bluff raise attempts. But it doesn't change the fact that you want your W$SD as high as possible. And obviously, you'd want all your bluff attempts to work, not have him call your 3 high bet with 4 high. I can't even believe this requires discussion. [/ QUOTE ] yeah if your opponent played with his cards face up, you should rarely lose a SD, only when you bluff at the river when he's weak and he still calls but um your opponents don't play with their hands face up, so you make estimates on what they hold, what you beat, and what kind of odds you are getting folding the river for 1bet HU, when you win 20% of the time in a 10BB pot is a huge error .. but it drops your W$SD to make the profitable call [/ QUOTE ] Yes, no doubt. But we we're talking what is optimal, so WANTING your W$SD number to be LOWER, just so your stats "look right" is just absurd. Ideally you'd never want to lose a showdown, but a couple of people seem so stat obsessed they are missing that point and for some reason seem to think losing showdowns is a good thing. Basically, what you don't want is a low WTSD to attain a W$SD. What you do want, obviously, is to go to showdown as often as possible with the winning hand, as that will make you the most money. Your WTSD can be too low, your W$SD can never be too high. 100% would be perfect. This seems so basic, but maybe I'm missing something.
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#6
08-07-2005, 09:50 PM
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Re: Thinking of moving up to $5/$10: Comment on $3/$6 stats
Assuming you go to the right number of showdowns at the right times, your W$SD can never be too high. But since we all make marginal river calls where we are 20% or something to win a big pot, we expect our W$SD to be between 50 and 60 in general.
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#7
08-08-2005, 01:10 AM
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Warning: Contains long, stoned, dormroom discussion
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, no doubt. But we we're talking what is optimal, so WANTING your W$SD number to be LOWER, just so your stats "look right" is just absurd. Ideally you'd never want to lose a showdown, but a couple of people seem so stat obsessed they are missing that point and for some reason seem to think losing showdowns is a good thing. [/ QUOTE ] I'm going to take one more crack at this. Yes, a lot of 2+2ers are unproductively stat-obsessed. However, there are situations where your stats can provide a very useful diagnostic tool for analyzing your game and improving it. So when people say you "want" your W$SD to be within such and such a range, what they are actually saying is that you want your play to be correct, and if your play is correct your W$SD will necessarily be within such and such a range, and therefore you "want" your W$SD to be in that range. It's a case of people "wanting" evidence for something because the thing the evidence signifies is desirable, despite the evidence itself having no value or even negative value. You could take your argument and apply it to the human body and say "Why would anyone want to feel pain?" Well, because feeling pain is an indication that your central nervous system is in good working order. So, yeah, I do want to feel pain. Because if I don't something is seriously wrong. I get that you understand this and are making a trickier, philosophical point, that if you could magically win every hand your W$SD would be 100 and who wouldn't want that? But even this point isn't really valid because in the magical hypothetical fantasy world in which I win every hand Poker stops being a game, and after a month of socking away a bunch of cash I quit playing forever. And given the choice, I wouldn't take that option. /mc
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#8
08-07-2005, 05:47 PM
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Re: Thinking of moving up to $5/$10: Comment on $3/$6 stats
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also, the W$SD can never be too high. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this statement [/ QUOTE ] Huh???????????? [/ QUOTE ] You have to make marginal calls to win...so if you're only 20% to win a hand in an 8BB pot, you should call, it's +EV, even though it brings down your W$SD [/ QUOTE ] If you know what your opponent holds, why would you ever see a showdown with a losing hand? [/ QUOTE ] Is there some way I can see what my opponent holds?
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