My very first 5/10 hand

[cmwck]

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a free showdown play is most effective when you have a lot of outs...

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I don't get this. I thought this is a good play when you don't have outs. That way, you avoid folding a hand with a lot of outs if you get 3-bet on the turn.

[private joker]

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Maybe I'm a moron, but I'm not understanding all of this "free showdown" nonsense.. if you raise the turn & he calls, even if he checks it down- it costs you the same bet calling him on the river would have, as the actual line shows.

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That's the point. For the same price, you're charging him to draw to beat you. I like the turn-raise for a free showdown line because if his draw doesn't come in, he won't pay off a bet anyway. If you're beaten when his draw does come in, you can avoid a check-raise from a bad/tricky player. Mostly it's to charge your opponent 2BBs as opposed to 1 to draw to a hand that beats you. It's a line best taken with a tenuous made hand.

[sudic]

Why do you say you and others wasted time at 5/10?


Thanks!

[captain_swing]

You can use the free showdown play with outs--it has a variety of uses, including as a variation of the semi-bluff. Say you have a weak suited ace, flop top pair, and pick up a flush draw on the turn. You are against a PFR and not confident about your ace. You can raise the turn and then bet the river if you make the flush (or aces up) but check behind if you only have your pair of aces with no kicker.

Like all free card plays, the FSP is going to depend on the aggressiveness of your opponent (in the scenario I outlined a Turn 3 bet might be quite likely but against a lot of passive players you could still use it).

A FSP is also good when you only have two outs provided you can safely fold to a 3 bet. You might use it to gain some fold equity by raising a turn scare card, trying to fold out a better pocket pair when an ace hits, for example.

I've been banging my head against 5-10 full for a couple of months now. My plan was to keep at it, but I would be interested in hearing why people think it is a waste of time.

[siegfriedandroy]

I dont understand this free showdown stuff. How could it possibly be better to put in 2 bets on the turn (and possibly folding the best hand to a 3 bet) then to put in 2 bets and be guaranteed a showdown? You are putting in 2 bets either way, but just calling down you will see the showdown for certain. I guess if youre ahead then you may lose a bet if he checks his AK on the river. Calling seems intuitively better. How could the free showdown play possibly be correct here?

[meep_42]

I agree with some of the other posters, if you raise the turn (which you should), you should bet the river for value.

-d

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that said, 5/10 full is the black hole of poker and I wasted 2 months there, and boom boom wasted like 6.

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Can you expain this for me? I'm on 5/10 full now. (and doing well thus far).

[Derek in NYC]

I think you give too much credit for the three-bet, and so I would raise the flop, but there's nothing heinously weak with the line you took.

[Derek in NYC]

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Does anyone raise the turn for a free showdown, intending to fold to a 3-bet?

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Im surprised to hear you even consider this line, Joker. This thinking is totally wrong. Even if you knew that the villain had an overpair, you'd need to call for 1 more bet with 5 clean outs.

Edited: oops, the paired 5 kills some of your outs.

[xniNja]

I don't buy your reasoning at all... If you are charging him to draw against you on the turn by raising (you must be thinking you have the best hand) you would want to bet the river, eliminating your "free showdown" anyway.

Key point isn't that I don't understand you like the river being checked.. it's that you should understand it's not "free" and in fact will cost you more many times.

I probably would have raised the flop to find out where I am. (People 3-bet preflop with mid-pairs in that level so qj could have been the best hand on the flop)