beating the ultra loose game

[SoBeDude]

Your problem seems that you either don't know when you are beat or are paying off regularly when you are.

Anything is possible. But I don't pay off much when I'm beat. Of course I do some times. but not frequently. And I'm great at folding on the flop when I miss. but I probably was in the hand for 2 bets. 2 bets, fold, 2-bets, fold, 2-bets, fold. Interspersed with the hands I make and get sucked out on. The problem is, by the river, you're beat far more often than in a sane game.

Like last night in my live 10-20 12-handed game. I'm on the button with AKo. nice.

7 callers to me, I call, blinds play. 10 to see the flop. flop is 8 high rainbow. MP bets, 7 call (including me). Turn is an ace, completing the rainbow. checked to me, I bet. 4 callers (one all-in). River is a T. checked to me, I bet all-in. 2 callers. winning hand is 8Ts for rivered 2 pair. $340 pot is pushed the other way.

[CrackerZack]

and you know what is beautiful in this game? When you get to play 22 UTG and the flop comes AQ2 and you bet and those 7 people call you, repeat on turn and river. You make so much in these games the 12% of the time you flop a set, and your multiway hands make so much money in these games, they are extremely beatable... but you get killed when you're card dead in these game.

[JTG51]

Just a couple of more points...

The problem is, by the river, you're beat far more often than in a sane game.

No one is denying that it takes a bigger hand on average to win in this kind of game. Our point is that being beaten more often is more than made up for by the much larger pots you'll win when you do win.

Like last night in my live 10-20 12-handed game. I'm on the button with AKo. nice.

7 callers to me, I call...

I'll save that debate for another day.

flop is 8 high rainbow. MP bets, 7 call (including me).

If you are convinced that one pair isn't going to win very often in this game (and you are correct, it won't win as often as it would in a tight game), why are you calling with just 6 outs to one pair in a 10 handed pot?

[Dynasty]

I'm on the button with AKo. nice. 7 callers to me, I call

You are giving up way to much by not raising here. There was a discussion in the mid-stakes forum on this topic several months ago. I started it.

It's worth considering whether you should draw to overcards in this game. It's a close decision.

[Bob T.]

It's worth considering whether you should draw to overcards in this game. It's a close decision.

....and it is probably a better decision to draw, if you did raise preflop, because you have much better odds. So if you are going to draw, raise, and if you aren't going to draw, then limping is probably better.

[MRBAA]

I think it's crucial not to let these loose games rob you of aggression. Go ahead and raise even if you're sure you'll get called as long as you're getting the right odds (as you were with your KQs preflop), you aren't giving up anything, just increasing your variance. Tend towards raising with anything you'd call with in many situations -- this can give you control (and possible free cards if needed later) and surprsingly can occaisonally induce very bad folds by opponents. Remember, many of these bad opponents don't really think about pot odds much. And if you're playing fairly tight, they may figure "uh oh the rock just raised on the flop and now he's betting the turn, better fold". Even one of those mistakes by an opponent that gives you a big pot is very a huge advantage.

[mvernon851]

I would have played your hand the exact same way. You didn't say if the players were aggressive but it seems like they are not. Sit back, wait for great cards, and jam the pot when you get them, and be aware of the implied odds for your draws.

[Bob T.]

I think it's crucial not to let these loose games rob you of aggression. Go ahead and raise even if you're sure you'll get called as long as you're getting the right odds

I agree.

But I was thinking about how the play of this hand in particular, where he didn't raise preflop, and once he does that, he isn't getting as good of odds on his draw on the flop.

He probably knows whether or not he is going to draw to overcards after the flop, and if he is, I think that it is even more important to raise preflop, because you will get better odds on your postflop play.

[PokerPrince]

LOL! Nice one Kong.

PokerPrince

[PokerPrince]

Raise that KQs up next time preflop. Big fat suited cards, especially connected ones, love those games.

PokerPrince