preflop raising gets me in trouble postflop

[chopchoi]

Here's the thing. If two players had called my flop bet, I could have easily folded the turn. But, since only one player called, how do I know he has me beat? He could just as easily be chasing a gutshot or a flush. If I check the turn, he is liable to bet and steal the pot, only becasuse I showed weakness. And if he doesn't bet, he might take a free card, catch, and beat me. So I'm not so sure that giving up on the turn against a lone opponent is correct. If I hadn't raised, and the pot was small, it would be easier.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
What's Hero's line if it's checked through and the turn is a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]
A bet is still risky as a King will often check this though. And now the King knows there is probably no Ace so he'll probably take this to showdown. It might be worth a shot, but I'm not even sure about that.

[Cooker]

Let me give you how I would probably play the hand and my reasoning. I raise this preflop without a doubt. Inside, I hate the flop. Several opponents and 2 overcards on the flop makes your hand pretty weak. I would check. If there is a bet and calls after me, I fold unless I am getting 20 to 1 pot odds to draw (unlikely and I want the ten of hearts in my hand so both outs are clean). If there is only a bet with no caller when the action comes back, I may check raise representing AK/AQ, but still lean toward a fold since the bettor is betting into a big field. If this check raise gets called anywhere, I am likely done with the hand unless the turn brings a ten.

I prefer showing some big aggression on early streets from time to time because it is cheaper than betting all the way with weak hands against calling stations. This move might fold weak Aces caught in between if the bettor is simply bluffing or drawing and will probably slow him down on later streets.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. If two players had called my flop bet, I could have easily folded the turn. But, since only one player called, how do I know he has me beat? He could just as easily be chasing a gutshot or a flush. If I check the turn, he is liable to bet and steal the pot, only becasuse I showed weakness. And if he doesn't bet, he might take a free card, catch, and beat me. So I'm not so sure that giving up on the turn against a lone opponent is correct. If I hadn't raised, and the pot was small, it would be easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too optimistic. The flop is too scary. Your scenario will pan out occassionally, but not enough to compensate for all the times you lose. It will be -EV in the long run.

Raising this preflop is still probably +EV for the times you do win the hand, so the preflop raise is still good. Against one overcard, especially a Jack or a Queen, a bet might be worth making. The Ace is the worst card that can come for you. A King is second worst. You got them both here. The pot is still not big enough to continue.

[Xhad]

That's the point. It doesn't make any difference if there's 5 bets vs. 10 bets in the pot, if you're not getting odds for a set and you won't win any other way you should still fold the flop. The reason you PFR is because not all flops are going to suck that much.

Almost any hand can go to crap on the flop. The point is not to stop raising preflop when you have an edge. The point is to recognize when your hand has fallen apart and you should fold after the flop. The fact that raising before the flop makes you play badly after the flop is a postflop leak, considering in this TT example you don't have the odds to continue even though it's raised.

[dawade]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because you raised preflop doesn't mean you have to bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

A concept I am just now learning.

[MrHorace]

Ditto for me as well. I feel like a total moron often with my post-flop play in these situations, so will study and re-study this post often.
Thanks for an awesome post.
david

[JKDStudent]

With that flop, I check/fold in most situations. Two overcards that people love to limp with, 2 to a flush, and you don't have a heart. That's no good. If you're behind, the only things you can hope for are a non-heart T (which completes a potential gutshot), or runner-runner for the one-card straight. You raised pf, so if you bet, anyone with a medium/small Ace is just going to call, fearing a bigger one. A King is probably not going to fold, but will not raise fearing an ace. And betting the turn if a 'safe' card falls does nothing, because a king would likely check that flop, so you're still probably not ahead.

This is a part of my game that I've been working on with success. I lost a good amount of money in 1/2 to the tighties at Crypto. I would simply go too far with second-best hands. My general thought process was, "But AQ/TT/JJ/AK is a good hand! Bet, bet, bet!" Disastrous. Now, it's a bit different. I'll raise AJ UTG, but I'll be telling myself that if I don't like the flop, I'm not going to waste money. That's not to say "fit or fold", but don't be stubborn. Realize that even AA doesn't win all the time, and going too far with second-best hands can be the most expensive thing you can do.

[turaho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because you raised preflop doesn't mean you have to bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

A concept I am just now learning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. Auto-betting a flop that I raised preflop is probably my biggest leak.

[silvershade]

I too have struggled to balance my aggression levels, particularly on hands that I raised pre-flop. It's definitely important to learn that you arent married to the hand just because you raised pre flop. I know this intellectually but for now still find myself staying in a hand I should dump. Its easily my biggest leak.

That said with TT and a number of limpers already, I think perhaps that limping from BB makes some sense rather than raising as you normally would with this hand, you are going after all to have to play out of position which isnt optimal for a medium pair like this and if J or higher flop with so many in you probably are in trouble.