preflop raising gets me in trouble postflop

[chopchoi]

Before reading Ed Miller's book, I used to play weak/tight before the flop (would only raise with AA-JJ, AK-AQ, AJs and KQs and would just call with many of these hands in ep), and played like a TAG after the flop. I now raise more pf, but I find that when I do, I turn into a lag after the flop, especially when I am heads up.

Here is an example:
I have TT in BB with 4 limpers. Normally I would just call with this hand when I am out of position, but I tell myself that I will win the pot more than 25% of the time, so a raise will be +EV. So I raise.

The flop is A,J,rag, with 2 hearts. I bet and get one caller. The turn is another non-heart low card, and I bet again. He calls again. The river is another blank. I check and he bets. Not good to fold the river for 1 bet. I'm getting 9:1 to call, and there's at least a 10% chance he's betting a busted draw, so I call. He shows an Ace.

If I had just checked pf, I would have check/folded the flop, and would have saved 3 big bets. I find myself in this type of situation all the time, and I am not profiting as much as I used to.

What should I do? I am tempted to say that Ed Miller's style just isn't for me, and go back to my old way of playing. Is this a good idea?

[MrWookie47]

I like a flop bet in that situation because there's a huge chance you'll take it down. If not, that's the last money I'm putting in the pot. You should definitely fold that river.

Also, the best solution to playing bad poker is not to play a different form of bad poker.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
but I tell myself that I will win the pot more than 25% of the time, so a raise will be +EV. So I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said it yourself. Raising is +EV. Gambling for profit (all forms) is about making the plays that maximise your expectation. Since raising has a higher expectation than checking in this case, raising is the correct play. (In some cases you might give up some expectation preflop to exploit a bigger postflop edge on a favourable flop, but I think TT is too strong to check here).

However, the fact that you raised preflop doesn't give you any special attachment to your hand postflop. You are going to change how much you like your hand a lot when the flop is laid out. In other words, just because you raised PF, doesn't mean you need to come out all guns blazing on a board that probably has you screwed.

In your example, I'd have cringed but probably bet the flop. If anyone calls I'm done with the hand, check/folding the turn UI. This is to cover situations where noone has an ace and you would not take the pot if you checked. Firing again on the turn with two overcards isn't going to be profitable in the long run unless your opponent is an absolute moron.

It takes a while to get used to it but the main thing to learn is that raising PF does not marry you to your hand. If you can get over this sort of play, things should start to improve.

[bozlax]

Since you raised preflop from the BB, in this particular instance, anybody holding ace-rag suited that called one the first time 'round is obviously going to call one more, but be worried that you have a better ace. When you bet out this flop you haven't done anything to disabuse them of that notion, but they're going to be reluctant to fold their top pair as well (especially if they have redraws), so they're going to call down. It's what I'd do.

The answer isn't to go back to playing your strong hands like a wuss, preflop, it's to adjust your postflop style a smidge. In the example given you don't HAVE to bet postflop; TT is a middle-pair and you've flopped 2 overcards with no redraws. Check, and depending on your read of the Villan when he bets (which he should), you react accordingly.

[Marquis]

Here's an idea. Don't make marginal preflop raises until you know how to play them postflop. There is no shame in checking TT from the BB preflop with 4 people already in, and playing it for set value.

[walkdoc]

Thanks very much for posting this question. This is one of my biggest leaks, and the suggestions you received really help me a lot. I suppose you could term middle pair hands Weak/Tight postflop hands, depending on the over cards that come thru. I actually find this problem much more w/ AKo - AJo, when I never hit the flop or turn and often not the river. Good to know that its better to fold and wait for the next hand then continue to spew $$$. Thanks again! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Walkdoc

[aK13]

If I am in the BB with 4 limpers, I raise preflop, but don't hesitate to dump postflop (check/fold) on this type of board vs. 5 players. Just because you raised preflop doesn't mean you have to bet the flop.

[nomadtla]

This is something I've run into a lot myself since I switched from my Weak/suppertight to more Ed millers style. I know I still need to let go of hands I raised preflop. The flop bet is good, but I agree with MR Wookie "that's the last money I'm putting in the pot". and with Dave "the fact that you raised preflop doesn't give you any special attachment to your hand postflop".
Now if only I could listen to what I'm saying when I'm at the tables, then I wouldn't become an ATM on hands like this, and overs that miss.
thanks for posting this question.

[TripleH68]

May I suggest it sounds like you need to work on hand reading skills.

Your post sounds like you are too focused on your own cards. If you have PT open it up and review some hands.

[chaz64]

You have to consider the board and number of opponents before betting out. With two overcards and one or two opponents I would bet out. Here, you have four opponents - it's too likely one of the overcards hit someone. With a flop of J-rag-rag I'd be more inclined to bet.

With A-J-rag and more than three opponents I would typically check. If it is bet and raised you have an easy fold. If there is a bet from EP and no raise you can call knowing it won't cost more than one bet to peel, and you can fold the turn UI. If it's checked to LP and is bet, you can check-raise in the hopes of driving out someone with a weak ace who would have called for just one bet.