AHHH the power of the button...

[bkholdem]

Hi. I'm switching over from no limit after 4 tabling there for about a year. I've been 4 tabling the 2/4 limit games for about a week. With respect to the preflop play, doesn't utg have a big pocket pair most of the time it's capped preflop like this?

[maxor]

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Hi. I'm switching over from no limit after 4 tabling there for about a year. I've been 4 tabling the 2/4 limit games for about a week. With respect to the preflop play, doesn't utg have a big pocket pair most of the time it's capped preflop like this?

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It was capped on the flop.

[chesspain]

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If you are gonna play this, you should raise pre-flop, especially on the button. Raising pre-flop makes marginal situations so much easier to play.

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This is just silly. Say I raise the flop after three limpers with A9o, we end up with five to the flop (which misses me), and everyone now checks to me.

Did I really need to spend an extra SB to be in a situation where everyone checking to raiser means I have less information than I might have if I hadn't raised preflop?

[crunchy1]

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(1) Making the hand easier to play is not a good reason to raise. Play poker - make tough decisions. Don't make value-less raises in multiway pots essentially because it will make it easier to fold later on.

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The whole point of making a hand easier to play is that you are able to save/make extra bets, rather than being in more difficult situations where you don't know what to do. Saying it doesn't matter whether you are in an easy or confusing postflop situation is utterly and completely ridiculous. That said, it's not a great reason for raising in and of itself, but coupled with other factors, can be a nice bonus reason. Finally, "being easier to play" doesn't just mean making folding easier. Folding is alwasy easy, like the beer at Delta Tau Chi, don't cost nothing. (exaggerating somewhat)

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The whole point of making decisions in poker is to make good decisions. A good decision is the one with the highest expectation.

Raising to make a hand easier to play does not neccessarily mean that your raise was the best play at that particular moment in the hand with the greatest expected value. Thus, purely raising to make a hand play easier is bad.

I won't disagree that making future decisions easier is a nice side-effect - but that's all it should be. IMO, it should not be a factor in the decision making process.

If you always raise to make decisions on later rounds easier - you are (A) likely missing out on some higher expectation decisions and (B) not improving as a poker player by making the correct decision on an early street even though it make face you with a tougher decision on a later street.

[Garbonzo]

Hi Crunchy,

Do you think the preflop limp is fine? Good? Standard? Depends on the game?

Does anyone think folding is right?

It feels like a limp or fold to me and I can't seem to come to much conclusion....

[crunchy1]

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I don't know about you, but I think raising to make hands easier to play is basic poker strategy.

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It is - for marginal players (no offense intended - I have no knowledge of your personal game)

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Getting caught in marginal situations is where you lose the most money.

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Learning how to play mariginal decisions is crucial to your development as a player. It's also the reason that the best players are the best players.

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This raise isn't value-less as you are on the button and can fold the blinds.

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I never said it wasn't. But it's definitely thin. You likely won't fold out the blinds that often - especially with no reads. It's also already multiway (which will induce the blinds to call at a reduced price even if you do raise) and your hand isn't that great in that type of pot - although your position is. It's probably worth a call but, to raise PF - I don't know. I guess I'm not for or against it.

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Folding is clearly the worst option as you have TPTK on a terrible board with a flush draw.

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So you say folding is the worst option - and then go on to say how much that flop sucks?!? I'm confused....

I'm not much for the raise or fold mentality but, this is a situation where I do believe it's the case. On the flop you're either convinced that you're beat and need to give up or you need to make these guys pay for their draws. To begin to play this hand passively at this point is not good, IMO.


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I don't think raising this flop is by any means a bad idea, I just prefer the call and raise a safe turn line. Either way I don't think either line is really too much better than the other.

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I do - and I think that your judgement may be skewed by the fact that UTG lead the turn. First off, these players are unkown. If they check the turn and then only have to call one bet Hero lost out some by not raising the flop. Second, there's no way that Hero can protect his hand in this pot. Waiting until the turn to raise is not going to drive anyone out and it's not going to offer anyone incorrect odds to call with many wacky draws. Raising the flop is going to offer the highest probability that Hero will extract the most value out of his hand.

[Wepeel]

Crunchy1 I think you are clearly missing the point of raising in situations to make the rest of the hand easier to play. Please see the link below.

Sthief's preflop challenge

[damaniac]

Then I think we agree. From your initial post, it sounded like you didn't think it mattered whether later decisions were made easier or not. All I'm saying is that, if raising and calling had the same expectation and such, but raising would make decisions postflop easier, one should raise. I don't think this hand is a raise at all.

However, saying "IMO, it should not be a factor in the decision making process" is retarded. It is one of many possible benefits of raising: it should be weighed along with everything else.

[damaniac]

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Learning how to play mariginal decisions is crucial to your development as a player. It's also the reason that the best players are the best players.

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True.

However, no matter how good you are, making plays in marginal situations is more difficult than in easier ones (by definition). Your EV will be lower simply because you have a worse read on opponent/worse understanding of where you stand/ or whatever it is that makes the situation marginal. So anyone, even an expert, is going to prefer fewer marginal situations if possible. I would think a good player would also seek to CREATE more easy situations, if possible. If that is a benefit of raising in given situation, it should be factored into the decision-making process. One should not make a raise just for that reason, but as part of it. To think that it doesn't matter whether you are in an easy or difficult situation, or that you shouldn't care, is dumb.

[bkholdem]

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[ QUOTE ]
Hi. I'm switching over from no limit after 4 tabling there for about a year. I've been 4 tabling the 2/4 limit games for about a week. With respect to the preflop play, doesn't utg have a big pocket pair most of the time it's capped preflop like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was capped on the flop.

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Yes it was, silly me. lol