AHHH the power of the button...

Haupt_234 · #1 05-24-2005, 09:42 AM

UTG+1 and UTG+2 both unknowns to me since it is about my first orbit. There are a bunch of questions about this hand that I have since I am trying to loosen up and normally wouldn't play this hand nearly the same.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (5.40 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 raises, MP3 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, UTG+1 caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.70 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.70 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.70 BB

PF limp ok? And the 3-bet on the flop, call down the cap? I play g00t or d0nk?

Haupt_234

jskills · #2 05-24-2005, 10:21 AM

I'd fold it preflop. AT is usually my cutoff here, so A9 certainly isn't terrible I guess.

On the flop, 3-betting is a sure way to find out if your opponents as really as strong as they're acting, and villan's flop cap should confirm it. Looks to me like one (or both) of them flopped two pair or a set.

I can't see how top pair is good enough to call down here. I'd fold the turn.

Had you had some reads that these guys were LAGs, then your line would be ok, but against complete unknowns, you've got to give them credit for a better hand I think.

pauliewalnuts · #3 05-24-2005, 10:24 AM

Hmmm, that is a tough spot on the flop. Before we get to that though, I would most likely pitch that hand PF. And if you do decide to play it, you should probably raise and take control of the hand. I imagine the flop wouldve played much differently had you done that. As it were though, I think you either have to fold or 3bet the flop. There is a good chance you have the best hand at the moment, but there are a lot of cards that could come where you have to get away from your hand in the face of much aggression. I think calling the turn and river is standard after they both blank. But I'll be honest, if your opponents are reasonable I cant see winning this hand against two people at showdown. It looks an afwul lot like UTG+1 mightve hit a set.

Garbonzo · #4 05-24-2005, 10:38 AM

I'm unsure on preflop, and I hope some more people chime in with some reasoning behind how playable this hand is from here...

Too many people pump the hell out of pots with draws, and after all those bets go in, I think calling down with TPTK is fine. It would not suprise me if villains had hands like 10-9, j-9 or 77. There are alot of bets in there, and I think you win often enough to call it down.

Wepeel · #5 05-24-2005, 10:39 AM

If you are gonna play this, you should raise pre-flop, especially on the button. Raising pre-flop makes marginal situations so much easier to play. However, I most likely call two cold here on the flop and raise a safe turn.

Haupt_234 · #6 05-24-2005, 01:14 PM

UTG+1 has 7h Ah (high card, ace).
UTG+2 has 8d 7s (one pair, eights).
Hero has As 9d (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.70 BB.

I got lucky that the 2 unknown aggressors were pumping draws...

Haupt_234

jskills · #7 05-24-2005, 01:18 PM

UTG+1 needs to learn the proper way to pump draws. His late street bets we complete spewage - especially the river ...

crunchy1 · #8 05-24-2005, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are gonna play this, you should raise pre-flop, especially on the button. Raising pre-flop makes marginal situations so much easier to play. However, I most likely call two cold here on the flop and raise a safe turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh......

(1) Making the hand easier to play is not a good reason to raise. Play poker - make tough decisions. Don't make value-less raises in multiway pots essentially because it will make it easier to fold later on.

(2) Calling seems like the 3rd best option - distant 3rd. I can understand a fold being 2nd - up against unknown opponents in a relatively small, unraised pot.

3-betting seems clearly to be the best. You can define your hand to the field. You have a chance to knock out the BB which increase your chances of winning at showdown. You make the likely UTG drawing hands pay to draw against your top pair.

damaniac · #9 05-24-2005, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(1) Making the hand easier to play is not a good reason to raise. Play poker - make tough decisions. Don't make value-less raises in multiway pots essentially because it will make it easier to fold later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point of making a hand easier to play is that you are able to save/make extra bets, rather than being in more difficult situations where you don't know what to do. Saying it doesn't matter whether you are in an easy or confusing postflop situation is utterly and completely ridiculous. That said, it's not a great reason for raising in and of itself, but coupled with other factors, can be a nice bonus reason. Finally, "being easier to play" doesn't just mean making folding easier. Folding is alwasy easy, like the beer at Delta Tau Chi, don't cost nothing. (exaggerating somewhat)

Wepeel · #10 05-24-2005, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(1) Making the hand easier to play is not a good reason to raise. Play poker - make tough decisions. Don't make value-less raises in multiway pots essentially because it will make it easier to fold later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about you, but I think raising to make hands easier to play is basic poker strategy. Getting caught in marginal situations is where you lose the most money. This raise isn't value-less as you are on the button and can fold the blinds.

[ QUOTE ]
(2) Calling seems like the 3rd best option - distant 3rd. I can understand a fold being 2nd - up against unknown opponents in a relatively small, unraised pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding is clearly the worst option as you have TPTK on a terrible board with a flush draw. I don't think raising this flop is by any means a bad idea, I just prefer the call and raise a safe turn line. Either way I don't think either line is really too much better than the other.