Bobby I Vs. Army of Donkness

[Munga30]

Is there enough wiggle in this opponent's game to have any hand you beat once he bets the river? I know it's a big big pot but [ed.: blasphemy omitted].

[brettbrettr]

Its hard to put him on a flush draw after he calls 2 then caps the flop. I don't raise the safe turn.

[Wepeel]

Nobody mentioned it yet, but I would fold to that raise preflop. Flop is fine, but you must call down after the turn because you do not want to get 3bet on the turn like you did. Reads would help tremondously though, but I think you can fold this on the river after not filling up. Looks too much like a set from the flop action, but AQ of hearts might be a possibility.

[daveymck]

I dont think there is another way to play it, raising the turn with the range of hands we can put him on is madatory as he is more likely drawing than having the 88/QQ, once he three bets we get the answer to our question but post is big so we have to call the 3 bet and even though the flush comes the pot the size it is I think we have to call as well although I cant see what we are ahead of.

Its unfortunate this hand came first one at the table cos with no read at all it makes the turn decision the most difficult.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody mentioned it yet, but I would fold to that raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Closing the action and getting 12-1? You probably should be playing any 2 cards at 12-1, and Q8o is a bit better than any two cards.

FWIW, I play the hand the same as the OP here. When he made the turn raise he didn't know he was going to be 3-bet. If he posts the same hand but his turn raise just gets called, everyone says "nh".

[Pokey]

Army of Donkness, eh?

Preflop call seems bad. Not as forgetting the sacred words "Klatu Verata Nicto," but I'm not sure it's worth the extra bet considering that your hand is unsuited, uncoordinated, and has little high card value.

Flop is groovy. I like the bet letting Button raise and drive out chasers. Your hand IS weak, after all. Three-bet is for value, but cap is a bit scary -- says to me he's got more than just a flush draw. Maybe A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

Turn raise is chopping off your own hand. You're heads-up, so your raise has no folding power. UTG isn't going ANYWHERE. If opponent has you beaten now, you're drawing to four outs, and I think that's a likely scenario. If UTG had checked, betting would be smarter. As it is, call and see your river.

River card is a shotgun shell to the face. Make your crying call and swear at his winner.

[sfcard]

I know this had already been said, but folding this preflop is insane. I think the idea of raising the turn to see where you are at then calling down a three bet and a river bet because the pot is so big is flawed. You know you are not folding, so finding out where you are at is useless. Based on this logic, one would raise every turn to find out if he was beat a street early and then sadly call down two more bets to see the cards that beat him. When he caps out of position and then leads the turn, unless this guy likes to pay extra for his draws, I think you gotta just call it down.Just my opinion, good luck.

Card

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Can somebody explain the flop bet rather than a checkraise of the field?

[/ QUOTE ]
13 SB pot, for one.

I think the turn raise is a little questionable here, although not bad. The river you're not winning often but I wouldn't fold.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
You probably should be playing any 2 cards at 12-1, and Q8o is a bit better than any two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. You've got a six-way pot; to win, you're going to need some firepower. Q8o doesn't provide it. You've got no flush strength, no reasonable straight strength, and limited high-card strength. In a six-way pot, a pair of 8s is nothing, and a pair of queens won't go too far. You'll need to hit at least twice to take down this pot, and that's going to happen rarely. And even if you do hit twice, you don't necessarily win the hand (this hand is a good example).

Also, Q8o is NOT better than "any two cards." In fact, it's a below-average hand. If nine random hands played against you, the Q8o would only win about 8.28% of the time (source).

If you are just paying to see the flop, intending to fold ANY flop that hits you for less than two pair, then you're not getting proper odds to continue:

Hitting two pair on the flop is 32:1 against.
Hitting trips is over 62:1 against.
Your straight is 305:1 against.
Full house is about 1088:1 against.
Quads is 9799:1 against.
Flushes and straight flushes are impossible on the flop.

If you plan to "play it by ear" after the flop, you're going to have a weak, easily dominated hand that you'll be playing out of position relative to the PF raiser. Sure, there's lots of dead money in the pot, but I think on average you're just adding to it.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Q8o is NOT better than "any two cards." In fact, it's a below-average hand. If nine random hands played against you, the Q8o would only win about 8.28% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? Isn't that my point? If Q8 would win 8.28% of the time, wouldn't you make a 12-1 call with it, when you only need to win 7.69% to make a profit? Especially if you had position on the entire field except one player?

[ QUOTE ]
If you are just paying to see the flop, intending to fold ANY flop that hits you for less than two pair, then you're not getting proper odds to continue

[/ QUOTE ]
This is absolutely not true. The whole reason for calling in this situation is that the pot is large and likely to get larger. There's a huge chance that you'll be getting odds to draw to a gutshot or play a single pair.