The thing about multitabling...

[JoshuaD]

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This is another thing that I was hoping to get out of this post. What the combination of postflop stats that someone is using to make decisions...

WTSD, W$SD seem like they make some sense to see if someone's calling with crap.

PokerEdge does offer some stats that I've not seen how to get in PT. Things like:

% SDs won if bet, % won if raised , etc. They also have that on every street as well. The challenge is getting to the info in a decent amount of time when playing 4+ tables. They're supposedly making an upgrade, so I'm hoping that will be one of their changes.

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I know PE is going to have overlays in their next release, and support up to 8 tables. Let's hope you can customize the overlays, and set up more complex rules for rating players. Tight and Loose just don't cut it.

[QTip]

I emailed back and forth with them about this upgrade for a while, and gave them some suggestions on the release. Among the things I suggested were these following:

Picture ratings like PT has with GT+, and also the ability to hold your mouse over the player and have the list of other important stats come up like GT+ has (and also the ability to customize which stats show up.)

[JoshuaD]

Do you know if they're going to be GT+ style overlays or PV style?

[That guy]

"reads" are important but I think the posters on twoplustwo as a group don't really understand just how statistically insignificant most reads are...

yes, you can get good reads on the outlier players; the 'super rocks' and the maniacs... but most others, the reads really don't have much substance..

I think you should play solid poker and very subtly adjust your play vs most players. Only deviate from your basic game when there is a really obvious read.. Like a 60 / 20 guy or a 13 / 10 guy... or the always fun 70 / 1 guy...

whether a guy is 19 / 8 or 29 / 12 really doesn't make that much difference other than a few extra hands at the margin... and most likely only when in particular positions.

its like the blackjack card-counter who identifies a 51/49 edge... it is just statistically insignificant relative to variance... until you play insane amounts of hands...

I think multi-tabling and playing a solid game throughout is far superior to single or 2-tabling with 'great reads'....

EDIT: that said, during a downswing or potential tilting, playing less tables does make some sense

[ckessel]

I could undoubtably make more money with 6-8 tables, but I'd rather not. Hand reading is considered to be more and more critical as you move up. When you play lots of tables you're simply not going to have time to be very good at hand reading.

With 3 tables, and PokerEdge, I find I typically have time to check someones stats when they do something odd, like a check-raise on the turn. I'd rather improve my hand/table reading skills and eventually advance to 15/30 where 2BB/100 would be mean I only need to run 2 tables for 20 hrs a week to make a good living [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Or even 5/10 with 3 tables would provide a decent $/hr.

[PotatoStew]

I'm sure massively-multitabling players aren't absorbing as much info, but as you said, the increased hands per hour offsets this.

If I was going to stay at this level indefinitely, I think I would play as many tables as I could once I'd gotten a feel for the game. However, I'd like to continue moving up in levels, so theoretically I could increase the amount of money I'm making.

My problem is that my game is far from perfect with only one or two tables. Add in more than 2 and I know I'm playing less well. If I play like this all the time, I know I'll never develop the skills I need to successfully move up in limits. So for me, I'd rather play less tables, and develop my skills so I can more comfortably move up. Other people with more solid games probably don't need to worry about this as much.


Edit: heh... just like ckessel is saying, except he beat me to it.

[flair1239]

Here is what I do three-tabling.

I pick one table as my focus table for 3 orbits. I use stats and previous notes for the other two tables.

On the focus table I take notes on players. The blanket things I look for are:

1. Their propensity to semi-bluff check raise the turn.
2. How aggressive they play unimproved over cards.
3. Betting and raising with draws.
4. Aggressiveness with underpairs.
5. 3-betting standards.
6. Cold calling standards.

The other things I look for are moves that are not consistent with their stats. For instance the other day a guy I have 600 hands on (14/5/2.5), 3-bet my MP1 open raise with a 99, now does this mean my sample of him is over a bad run of cards? Does it mean he has noticed my tendency to get a little light with my open raising standards? Or does he automitically put raisers on overcards? I don't know, but it was outside his profile to do that, so it bears watching in the future.

In Psychology of Poker, Schoonmaker talks about quickly classifying opponents, and then adjusting as future information becomes available. That is what I do. I don't make a note when a 35/2/.75 guy shows down T8o from MP, because yeah that's what they do. However I do make a note when I see 23/7/1.5 limp with QJo from MP, because this can help me differentiate him from a player with simaliar stats who may have a better understanding of position.

So that would be my advice, use your stats for your intitial reads, then note the discrepencies. I am trying to do a better job of this. On a motivated night if I play 500-700 hands I might make 25-30 manual notes. On a lazy night it might be 10-15. I imagine if I was doing it like I strive to do I would consistently make 40 notes a night.

Now that I think about it, I must do a better job at this in the future.

[blatz]

Just to let you know, I'm beta testing the new PE, used it last night. Doesn't have the overlay function in this yet, but it will, and has some customizable icons; the final version will also have even more, he says.

If you're curious about something, i can try to answer. When the overlay is added to this, all I can say is, wow. The man hit every suggestion made to him.

The auto-table info loads instantly. It is absolutely awesome. You can check out tables as quick as you can open them. The key stats are also fully customizable, and there is so much info available, its scary. Not just BB steal info, BB/100, Cold Calling, but also W$SD based on flop, turn, and river action, including check raise, which i can assume will be the most useful. It filters by limit also.

Simple for 8 tables (which i don't do myself, but tested)...The auto table lookup still shows 4 tables but you can toggle it between different skins.

[Garbonzo]

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Hey! There's a thought! I wonder how much time it would take to go over all those hands though and take notes...thant in itself could be -EV if you consider you could be playing during that time....especially if your play time is limited as mine is....a great thought.

I look forward to that link if you can find the one you're thinking of.

I try taking notes, but nothing like I should. I've only come across a player I've taken notes on like 1 or 2 times....there's just sooo many players at party and they come and go. The only ones I have good info on are the TAGs that are playing all the time.

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I have been searching but have not been able to finid it. I'll keep lookinig...but it's looking a little bleek.

[JoshuaD]

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Simple for 8 tables (which i don't do myself, but tested)...The auto table lookup still shows 4 tables but you can toggle it between different skins.

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Is the toggling done by skin or by username?