KQ in EP

[brettbrettr]

I think this is probably a fold to the turn raise.

[Schmed]

I'm calling for one more bet pretty much every time with the J8o for exactly that situation. I flop a draw, turn a big hand, am able to 3 bet on the expensive street, and get paid off on the river because there's too much money in the pot.

Even if you show me aces I'm calling there. With the str8, 2 pr/3 of a kind, possibilities combined with the probabilty that you were raising something like KQo utg +1 makes it a very easy call to make in the BB.

The only question I have outside of why you think you were that far ahead preflop of a guy in the BB calling your utg +1 raise with j8o is why didn't you raise the flop? You had the 3rd nut draw diamond and over cards...You probably do get C/Rd on the turn but you could count on your 1pr pretty much being dust against most low limit players with a turn C/R.

Bottom line is...hey at least you had a decent draw to the river and on the river there was too much money on the table to not call.....

[Schmed]

yeah I never call that flop....I raise it

[Fat Nicky]

I think you played this fine. After being 3-bet on the turn, I think it's fairly obvious we are behind, but there is a good enough chance we are drawing to the best hand enough times to see the river.

And yes, the river is a trap card, that's why we just call and don't raise.

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm calling for one more bet pretty much every time with the J8o for exactly that situation. I flop a draw, turn a big hand, am able to 3 bet on the expensive street, and get paid off on the river because there's too much money in the pot.

Even if you show me aces I'm calling there. With the str8, 2 pr/3 of a kind, possibilities combined with the probabilty that you were raising something like KQo utg +1 makes it a very easy call to make in the BB.

The only question I have outside of why you think you were that far ahead preflop of a guy in the BB calling your utg +1 raise with j8o is why didn't you raise the flop? You had the 3rd nut draw diamond and over cards...You probably do get C/Rd on the turn but you could count on your 1pr pretty much being dust against most low limit players with a turn C/R.

Bottom line is...hey at least you had a decent draw to the river and on the river there was too much money on the table to not call.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this logic. You call an EP raise, and play it heads up, with a 3 gapped off suit hand?? I feel like this must be a -EV play....all the times you flop draws and dont hit, all the times you hit raggedy dominated pairs....yuk.

Also, if you call this, at what point do you fold? 8-5 suited? 10-7 suited, 10-8 off? Do you play all these in the BB heads up against an Ep raiser?

[Schmed]

It certainly depends on the raiser but on face yes... I play a lot of gapped connectors for raises in the big blind. Yeah you may be up against aces and if you flop your jack you're in trouble but you're more likely up against something like Aq...AK... in this case utg+1 raises KQo... the times that your EP raiser is raising a small or mid pair that you have overs to makes up for the times he's got aces, kings, or queens. The only time you're in big trouble is when he has a big pair. Outside of that if both of your cards are live you're getting value on your call.

You have to be able to play cheese in the BB. You have to be able to get off of it when you don't catch and punish when you do if you want to take your game to the next level. The higher the limit the more you are going to have to learn to play those kinds of hands if you ever want to make any money doing it. Might as well learn at .5-1.00

[Garbonzo]

I would be interested to hear other people opinions on this, the "heads up" part makes me especially skeptical.

I am having difficulty seeing the value.

Maybe I need to work on my blind defense, bah, who am I kidding, I doubt there is a facet of my game that I don't need to work on....heh.

[sfwusc]

I dont know if they are clean or not, but you cant be sure. Therefore you have to discount them. If he has a pair and one of your high cards or Kd or Ad, then you equity in this pot on the flop isnt worth going to a showdown. It is a waste of chips....him catching the Queen made it more of a waste of chips.

Flop fold.

-SFWUSC

[sfwusc]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah I never call that flop....I raise it

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising it is fine. The read would matter. Calling is just awful.

edit: The fold call is saying you have 5:1 or 7.5 outs.

You have 9 diamonds
You have 3 Kings
You have 3 Queens

Against a pair you have 15(assuming no A or D of Dia)
Against two pair you have 9 and the runner
Against a set you have 9
Against the flush J or lower you have 9

If you think above is likely then call/fold.

Against the flush K or higher you are dead
Against the A or K draw you are drawing to 6ish (depening on the kicker)

Here fold.


The turn was expensive since I think he had J8.(but i know the turn action)

I do need to work on my play around the blinds. Maybe this will help me. Yet with the hero in EP do you really think it is a steal attempt if you are BB? I would think overs in BBs spot.

-SFWUSC

[jskills]

Come on. Calling a preflop raise with J8o is plain awful - from the BB or not. This is simply not a playable hand, unless you're in for free.