A Little Preflop Excercise

[Sarge85]

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cold calling is allowed too.

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A little part of me died when I read that.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[meep_42]

Why is cold-calling such a bad word? I think there are many times where your hand has great postflop value (floating, speculative hands in multi-way pots, low/mid pairs) but do not have the value to 3-bet.

I'll toss some examples of my last several CC hands (I do it far more often than most 2+2ers, I fear, but I'm showing a profit when I do over the admittedly small sample).

-d

[ErrantNight]

although i now need to flog myself for breaking my self-imposed responding silence... and in 2 minutes precisely will end my quick "check 2+2 because i'm an addict" break...

i felt compelled to respond because I STRONGLY disagree with the majority of these hands... to the point where I think you're giving up large amounts of equity. You've stated that it's your style, and you're obviously comfortable with your winrate within this style, and are making money at it... but just for the sake of argument...

Axs UTG. easy limp. easy easy easy. maybe at 3/6 on tighter tables I give this up. but at 2/4? really? are you terrible with table selection, uncomfortable playing this up front, or just really under the impression that 2/4 is too tight for this?

87s on the button after 2 limpers. there's no way in hell you should be folding this. i could entertain arguments at like, 34s for folding... but 87s? that's crazy talk. raise or call.

K3s on the button... for goodness sakes there's 4 freakin' limpers! sure it's not nearly as hot as A3s... but it's not so much less hot as to consider it crap, and I'm positive you're donking along with A3s right? Can I repeat, there's 4 limpers here... I'd limp with worse than this all day long...

JTo on the button... again, how is folding an option? position position position. this is easy. and raising probably is pretty bad here, as well, unsuited, but at least marginal enough that i wouldn't care to argue about it.

K9s MP... i don't mind this fold as much, but I really think you should get away from thinking of this as standard. Who's left to act, and how middle your position really is should definitely affect the playability. Really. MP3 after a loose limper with, say, a couple of unknowns behind you and you're not playing this? REALLY?

If you're limping along with Kxs from the blinds (say, completing from the sb) you should REALLY consider limping along in the button. Really. I imagine there's a whole host of hands you could employ this same strategy for, and find it to be +ev.

You should feel comfortable playins Axs up front on 2/4. You should start learning to ween yourself off it at select 3/6 tables, but you're not killing yourself with it.

My diagnosis: you don't take as much advantage as you should when you have positional advantage... I think you're probably tighter than I like up front, but I can't really argue with you if that's your comfort level... nor would I wish to... but I think you should expand your range of playable hands from the CO and the button, limping AND raising... but of course... I'm also just some guy who needs to get back to his schoolwork...

cheers, pj, and if you want to discuss any of this PM me, I'm trying to stay off the boards [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

now, everyone else, berate me for wasting my time on this post. life would have continued if i hadn't wasted my time with it, private joker would like me just a little bit more, and my schoolwork would be a little bit closer to being done...

say it with me:

ah dick shun.

[Justin A]

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wow I'm really surprised how many of these I disagree with you on

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I'm pretty tight preflop. It's a style. I don't think people who play K3s after a few limpers in LP are really "wrong," but I think it's better to fold that crap. I don't think people who limp Axs UTG are that wrong either (I used to do this at 2/4), but I think it's better.

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Errant Night made a good response, but I just wanted to add one thing.

You can't say you don't think it's "wrong", then say you think folding is better. Folding is a 0EV move. Calling with K3s on the button after a bunch of limpers is either +EV or -EV. If you think it's not "wrong" then that would imply that it's +EV. For folding to be better, then limping K3s on the button would have to be -EV. If it's +EV, which it is, then it's better, simple as that.

[private joker]

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Axs UTG. easy limp. easy easy easy. maybe at 3/6 on tighter tables I give this up.

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And that's what I'm talking about. 3/6. I fold it. The tables are tighter.

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but at 2/4? really?

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No. Not really. Maybe you misread. I said I used to play Axs UTG when I was at 2/4.

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are you terrible with table selection, uncomfortable playing this up front, or just really under the impression that 2/4 is too tight for this?

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I can always improve my table selection skills, but no. I don't think 2/4 is too tight for this. 3/6 is. I fold this now, because I play 3/6.

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87s on the button after 2 limpers. there's no way in hell you should be folding this. i could entertain arguments at like, 34s for folding... but 87s? that's crazy talk. raise or call.

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I've never folded this hand. I always call with it. But Josh's exercise says don't limp. Yeah, I said you could fold and not cry, but raise T9s. I didn't say you weren't giving up value by folding it -- you are -- but for the purposes of this exercise, you're only giving up a few pennies by folding it, since 87s, while good, is not a monster like QQ or AKs.

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K3s on the button... for goodness sakes there's 4 freakin' limpers! sure it's not nearly as hot as A3s... but it's not so much less hot as to consider it crap, and I'm positive you're donking along with A3s right? Can I repeat, there's 4 limpers here... I'd limp with worse than this all day long...

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You'd limp with worse? How much worse -- Q2s? J4s? I think those are junk hands. Sorry. And yes, of course I'm limping with Axs. Aces are better than kings.

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JTo on the button... again, how is folding an option? position position position. this is easy.

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I always call this too. And it's an easy call for me. Remember, in Josh's exercise, calling is not an option. It's raise or fold. When presented with this, folding is better I think than raising. Why? I think it gives up fewer pennies. But it's pennies all around because JTo is a thin hand.

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and raising probably is pretty bad here, as well, unsuited,

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OK, so the only other option is folding.

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You should feel comfortable playins Axs up front on 2/4.

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I do.

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You should start learning to ween yourself off it at select 3/6 tables,

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I have, and my winrate has improved.

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but you're not killing yourself with it.

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True. But if folding is slightly better than limping, I will fold.

[sthief09]

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Why is cold-calling such a bad word? I think there are many times where your hand has great postflop value (floating, speculative hands in multi-way pots, low/mid pairs) but do not have the value to 3-bet.

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that pretty much summarizes my feelings

[jluker7]

this is standard for me = )

[sthief09]

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this is standard for me = )

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everyone keeps saying this, but it shouldn't be. clearly there are times you should limp. unless your PFR is like 14 or 15, this isn't the way you play. my point is that many people limp when it's better for many reasons to raise

[ErrantNight]

because no one wants to admit they limp too much... even with PFR% below 10 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[sthief09]

what's pretty interesting is that normally people talk about limping for deception. well, in most cases we're raising more than we're limping, so raising disguises our hand. if you limp it's easier to put you on a small pair or a suited connector

this isn't something that really matters, but it's just kind of weird