Anyone bet this river?

[ML4L]

Hey iceman,

[ QUOTE ]
"Now he bets $12 into a $34 pot (this is like a battle of clowns). Your "substantial" raise is to $40. He has to call $28 with a $58 pot. So your raise was 1/2 the pot. This is substantial in your book? And his call once again set off alarm bells? He was the BB for chrissake, he could have a garbage 2 pair which you should be getting paid off against. You can't know his starting hand, but you hope he has something and look to build the pot. If you have built a big pot on the turn, you can check behind on the river if he lets you. Or you will have to call off your stack, but such is the danger of limping UTG and allowing the BB to play any 2."

I see this kind of advice I see here all the time and I just dont agree with it.

First of all my raise wasnt half the pot. The pot was $45 when it got to me and I raised to $40. Ok, he has to call $28 into a $58 pot. Hes getting 2-1. Those are incorrect odds to call with a draw. Those are great odds for me if he has garbage 2 pair. You want me to raise the pot?
So my raise would be to what? The pot is $34 + his $12 so its $45. You want me to raise to $90? Or do you want me to call his $12 and THEN raise the pot? Which would make my raise to $114?

he bets $12 and I raise to $114? Thats crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

34 + 12 + 40 = 86

28/86 = 3-1 pot odds on a call.

He is clearly correct to call with any flush draw or open-ender. I would also call with a gutshot if I either had good bluff equity on a scare card or if I knew that the guy had a set and would give up his stack (the former being more likely than the latter).

[ QUOTE ]
You think hes going to call $78 more (or $100 more) if he has 2 pair? Not in the games I play. Im letting him off way too easy with that raise. He'll fold eveything but a smaller set or a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, you should be playing many hands very aggressively, because nobody will ever have enough to call you.

As has been said, raise more on the flop. Raise more on the turn. Meta-game purposes or some sort of strong read on the opponent would probably be the only reason not to. Neither of those things apply here. Bet the river and hope he has the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

ML4L

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]


Ok, he has to call $28 into a $58 pot.



[/ QUOTE ]

This mistake was mine (hey i am posting from work). He had to call $28 into a $86 pot.

[ QUOTE ]

You want me to raise the pot? So my raise would be to what? The pot is $34 + his $12 so its $45. You want me to raise to $90? Or do you want me to call his $12 and THEN raise the pot? Which would make my raise to $114?

he bets $12 and I raise to $114? Thats crazy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I want you to raise the pot (or something close to it). That would mean raising his $12 to $70 ($58 on top).

You don't seem to be open to criticism. You don't seem to understand simple concepts of NLHE. You don't know what it means to bet/raise the pot (hint: yes, he will be getting 2:1). You don't seem to know about implied odds. Stop arguing and listen to what everyone is trying to show you.

[bkholdem]

No it wasn't. Unless you copied your handle from other forums I take it your iceman5 from other forums too. If that assumption of mine is correct I think you should move up in stakes.

If your not the same guy you stole someone else's handle dude.

[iceman5]

Yes Im the same iceman5 from UPF.

[iceman5]

I am open to critism, I just dont agree with you,but thats ok. There are plenty of different winning styles.

I know what it means to raise the pot, but my numbers were also off. My point was that very very rarely do I see someone raise the pot in the games I play in.

A normal hand might have the pot being $18 on the flop. Someone bets $15 and gets a caller. The pot would be $48. At the turn the guy may bet $35 and get raised to $85 or something. Thats no where near a pot sized raise. A pot sized raise would be to around $150. Nobody is my games is calling that raise with 2 pair in an unraised pot. There are rarely raises of that size unless there are multiple people in the hand with draws available that they want to get out.

The only place I see raises like that is at UB because of the bet pot button.

Also, did anyone here think the BB was on a draw after betting the flop and calling a raise and then betting the turn? Some of you guys might play that way (and Im not saying its wrong depending on what you have), but the guys I play dont play that way.

And I am listening to the advice Ive been given. Some of it sunk in and some of it I just dont agree with. I dont think we need to waste any more time on this one.

[ceczar]

[ QUOTE ]
A normal hand might have the pot being $18 on the flop. Someone bets $15 and gets a caller. The pot would be $48. At the turn the guy may bet $35 and get raised to $85 or something. Thats no where near a pot sized raise. A pot sized raise would be to around $150. Nobody is my games is calling that raise with 2 pair in an unraised pot. There are rarely raises of that size unless there are multiple people in the hand with draws available that they want to get out.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that you're talking about the Party middle stakes games, in which most of the posters in the forum play, so saying that people don't call raises in "the games you play" just doesn't match experience. if you can't raise pot or close to pot on the turn without getting everyone to fold, then you probably aren't raising enough with your lesser hands to be optimal, but please don't read any condescention into this post, i'm just trying to explain my response.

[iceman5]

Thats entirely possible.

[sawseech]

it sure looks like he has the caseQ