Anyone bet this river?

[iceman5]

OK, which part do you think is horrible?

Surely you dont think limping ocassionally QQ is horrible.

I agree that the flop raise shouldve been higher, but didnt think he had much and I didnt want to scare him off yet.

The turn, I did raise a substantial amount.

The river, I think I played correctly based on my read and based on how I played the earlier parts of the hand. If i had raised preflop and the rest of the action in the hand was the same (min raise flop and bigger turn raise), then I would most definately have pounded that river.

So can you tell me which part of the hand is SO bad?

[Prevaricator]

I really hate the min raise on the flop the most in this hand.

[fsuplayer]

either dont raise the flop, or pot it.

same with the turn. it looks like a flush draw or pair + straight draw trying to get a cheap look. Id make it at least 60.

river: in the long run you are losing money checking this behind against the likely range of hands.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: ($10) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $6</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, BB calls $6.


[/ QUOTE ]

BRUTAL. Simply brutal. You are hoping that he DOES have some kind of hand here. Instead of trying to milk a few extra dollars from a weak hand, you should be looking to build this pot (not to mention not give a marginal draw a chance to stack you by letting him hang around). What if he has a gutshot? You have a huge hand. You want to give him a chance to stack you for $6?

OK, this is all very basic, but you asked for it. There is $10 in the pot. He bets $6. Now there is $16 (10+6=16). When you raise to $12, you have given him the option of folding or calling $6 with a $22 pot. And you say his call sent off alarm bells???? He would be right to call you with a gutshot. You limped UTG, and could easily have a set or AQ. He knows this. You should have raised to ~28, not 12.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: ($34) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $40</font>, BB calls $28.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now he bets $12 into a $34 pot (this is like a battle of clowns). Your "substantial" raise is to $40. He has to call $28 with a $58 pot. So your raise was 1/2 the pot. This is substantial in your book? And his call once again set off alarm bells? He was the BB for chrissake, he could have a garbage 2 pair which you should be getting paid off against. You can't know his starting hand, but you hope he has something and look to build the pot. If you have built a big pot on the turn, you can check behind on the river if he lets you. Or you will have to call off your stack, but such is the danger of limping UTG and allowing the BB to play any 2.

[ QUOTE ]

River: ($114) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.


[/ QUOTE ]

Given the (ridiculous) action thus far, you had no business not value betting. Your incredibly weak betting means neither of you have well defined hands.

[theBruiser500]

iceman if you didn't think he had much then call the flop and give him a free card and also let him overplay his hand or bluff. on the river it is kind of godo that you go with your read. i like value betting everything so for me to check behind with a set of queens here would require a lot of courage, like calling a big river bet with bottom pair. so it is kind of good that you are going with your read, that takes courage to do (unless you are just a scared bad player who doesn't like value betting good hands) but in this case it just isn't justifiable, he has so many other made hands then straights

[iceman5]

"Now he bets $12 into a $34 pot (this is like a battle of clowns). Your "substantial" raise is to $40. He has to call $28 with a $58 pot. So your raise was 1/2 the pot. This is substantial in your book? And his call once again set off alarm bells? He was the BB for chrissake, he could have a garbage 2 pair which you should be getting paid off against. You can't know his starting hand, but you hope he has something and look to build the pot. If you have built a big pot on the turn, you can check behind on the river if he lets you. Or you will have to call off your stack, but such is the danger of limping UTG and allowing the BB to play any 2."

I see this kind of advice I see here all the time and I just dont agree with it.

First of all my raise wasnt half the pot. The pot was $45 when it got to me and I raised to $40. Ok, he has to call $28 into a $58 pot. Hes getting 2-1. Those are incorrect odds to call with a draw. Those are great odds for me if he has garbage 2 pair. You want me to raise the pot?
So my raise would be to what? The pot is $34 + his $12 so its $45. You want me to raise to $90? Or do you want me to call his $12 and THEN raise the pot? Which would make my raise to $114?

he bets $12 and I raise to $114? Thats crazy.

You think hes going to call $78 more (or $100 more) if he has 2 pair? Not in the games I play. Im letting him off way too easy with that raise. He'll fold eveything but a smaller set or a straight.

Im open to critisism or I wouldnt have posted, but I just dont understand this advice. Maybe Im a moron.

[bkholdem]

You should move up in stakes dude. It's time.

[iceman5]

Is that your idea of sarcasm? I do happen to be crushing this Party $2/$4 game as hard as that might be to believe.

[ceczar]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all my raise wasnt half the pot. The pot was $45 when it got to me and I raised to $40. Ok, he has to call $28 into a $58 pot. Hes getting 2-1. Those are incorrect odds to call with a draw. Those are great odds for me if he has garbage 2 pair. You want me to raise the pot?
So my raise would be to what? The pot is $34 + his $12 so its $45. You want me to raise to $90? Or do you want me to call his $12 and THEN raise the pot? Which would make my raise to $114?

[/ QUOTE ]

many things here are just wrong. the pot was 46 when it got to you and you raised the bet 28, which meant that he had to call 28 into a pot of ~85, which is 3-1, not 2-1. you can't underestimate how big of a difference that is, especially when opponents love to overestimate implied odds on their draws

raising pot would be calling 12 (pot = 57) and raising 57, which would be raising to 69 or 70, which gives him 2-1 having to call 57 into a 114 pot.

based on your previous posts i have little doubt you are a winning player, but you really are confused about what it means to raise pot.

[Kaz The Original]

Against somewhat observant opponents you CANNOT raise just big pairs and AK.