SSHE Turn play hand quiz #8

[Elizabeth]

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The flop raise just puts more money into an already big pot while lowering your EV.

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This isn't specifically directed at you Hoi ...

People have been very very sloppy with terminology, especially "correct" and "+EV". They are using them interchangably. Is a raise +EV? Then I should do it!

The flop raise is +EV. That doesn't make it the *BEST* play. SSHE goes over this distinction in detail and I am just amazed that so many cannot understand the distinction. I think people think that any play that is not best is negative EV. Maybe they are incorrectly thinking that because the second best play wins less money compared to the best play, it's EV must be this negative value? I don't know.

But what happens when people misuse the terms is that the discussion degenerates into "is the flop raise profitable (+EV)?" instead of "is the flop raise best?"

[SA125]

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People have been very very sloppy with terminology, especially "correct" and "+EV". They are using them interchangably. Is a raise +EV? Then I should do it!

The flop raise is +EV. That doesn't make it the *BEST* play. SSHE goes over this distinction in detail and I am just amazed that so many cannot understand the distinction. I think people think that any play that is not best is negative EV. Maybe they are incorrectly thinking that because the second best play wins less money compared to the best play, it's EV must be this negative value? I don't know.

But what happens when people misuse the terms is that the discussion degenerates into "is the flop raise profitable (+EV)?" instead of "is the flop raise best?"

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Nice. Getting the most out of it vs betting or raising when you have the best of it. HPFAP talks about backing off sometimes when you obviously have the best of it.

[CallMeIshmael]

I have to agree with bernie that there are some hands straight out of SSHE or HPFAP that would be shot down like no tomorrow on this board because the player waited until the turn.

I honestly think that if someone played the hand on pg 171 of HPFAP, in which he has AA, checks that flop, and posted it here, he would be the flame of the week. With 99% of people saying he is insane.

[colgin]

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wouldn't one arguement for a flop raise be that if you raise the flop you are getting more info on the turn play if it is bet into you or checked?

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For your own sake, please stop reading the Hellmuth book. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

What kind of info will you have and how will you use it if if everyone calls your three-bet and then checks into you, everyone calls your three-bet and someone else leads the turn, it gets capped behind you and someone leads, it gets capped behind you but the the turn gets checked to you, etc. I could go on but won't. Raising solely for information, especially in multiway pots,is usually not beneficial.

[ESCaspian]

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wouldn't one arguement for a flop raise be that if you raise the flop you are getting more info on the turn play if it is bet into you or checked?

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For your own sake, please stop reading the Hellmuth book. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

What kind of info will you have and how will you use it if if everyone calls your three-bet and then checks into you, everyone calls your three-bet and someone else leads the turn, it gets capped behind you and someone leads, it gets capped behind you but the the turn gets checked to you, etc. I could go on but won't. Raising solely for information, especially in multiway pots,is usually not beneficial.

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I’ve never even picked up the Hellmuth book, every poker book discussed on this forum advises raising at times for information. While you may be right about the multi way pot bit, raising here would clearly not be “solely” for info as it is a positive EV play as well. In the end it’s probably a pretty close decision. As for what you can learn/ get out of it, as I see it…

1. “if everyone calls your three-bet and then checks into you” – probably a blank fell and your ahead-bet or a spade fell and you may be ahead or being c/r’d –check behind (it’s not worth the risk with one pair)
2. “everyone calls your three-bet and someone else leads the turn” – a blank fell -raise and fold to a reraise (probably two pair or a set). a dangerous card fell (i.e a spade) - fold.
3. “it gets capped behind you but the turn gets checked to you” same as 1 except someone threw in a another value bet on the flop.
4. gets capped behind you and someone leads – fold you are probably behind with only one pair – if a blank fell you may raise to be sure but I would let it go as in the end you only have one pair (albeit top pair) and I find a lot of money is lost going to far with one pair in multiway pots (maybe call it down since the pot is so big but you are probably behind without help on the river) this scenario with a blank is the trickiest to me- any thoughts?

Anyway that’s how I see it, not that the book’s way is bad (obviously he’s a great player), I just don’t think it’s clear cut by any means.

[CallMeIshmael]

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1. “if everyone calls your three-bet and then checks into you” – probably a blank fell and your ahead-bet or a spade fell and you may be ahead or being c/r’d –check behind (it’s not worth the risk with one pair)

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I *think* you are advocating checking behind with TPTK in a large multiway pot with a 3 flush on the board. If I am not misreading this, that is dreadful.

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2. “everyone calls your three-bet and someone else leads the turn” – a blank fell -raise and fold to a reraise (probably two pair or a set). a dangerous card fell (i.e a spade) - fold.

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Reread the section starting on pg 108 of SSHE.