SSHE Turn play hand quiz #8

[littlejohn]

Here's the quiz:

"You have A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the button. Four players limp, and you raise. The SB folds, the BB calls, and the limpers call (12.5 sb's). The Flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], giving you top pair and a backdoor nut flush draw. The BB bets, the first limper calls, and the second one raises. The next player cold-calls, and the final limper folds. You call. The BB and the first limper call (11 bb's). The turn is the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. It is checked to the flop raiser who bets. The next player calls (13 bb's). What should you do?

Answer: Raise. The reason you just called the flop raise was to get a raise in on fourth street if a blank fell."

So my question is on the flop play here not the turn. Why do you not 3 bet the flop here? That would be my default play and I want to understand why you don't get as much in on the flop as you can. Is it that you fear a spade, or that in a way you are slow-playing your TPTK if a blank comes on the turn? Thanks for shedding light!

[bigmac366]

i could easily be wrong about all of the following, if so i beg someone to correct me. i think the reason for the turn raise is because we are likely ahead, but it is a draw heavy board, so by waiting for the turn to raise we are reducing the effective odds of the str8/flush draws. we also better protect our hand by raising the turn and facing the field with calling 2 big bets cold.

[Vee Quiva]

I believe it's because you can protect your hand better on the turn. The players still have the odds to draw to the flush on the river, but your raise makes it a mistake to draw to a gut shot straight.

If you raise on the flop, anybody behind has the odds to draw to just about anything.

Plus you probably narrow the field with the raise on the turn with the larger bets and only one card to come.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
So my question is on the flop play here not the turn. Why do you not 3 bet the flop here?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you just called the flop raise was to get a raise in on fourth street if a blank fell."

[/ QUOTE ]

With a bet and a raise to you on the flop it is unlikely it will be checked to you on the turn right?

[chief444]

That's all true, but it's for value as well.

[btspider]

if we had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].. would the flop call still be the way to go?

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
if we had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].. would the flop call still be the way to go?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question.

If we're still holding A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].....

What if the turn card was the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Are we still raising the turn?

[QTip]

It seems like that would make the raise even easier...

Was it you crunchy that I remember talking about checking/calling when we get more outs on the turn? Is that what you're talking about here?

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if we had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].. would the flop call still be the way to go?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question.

If we're still holding A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].....

What if the turn card was the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Are we still raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

definitely.. we're raising to push our equity, and a flush draw gives us incredible equity in this pot.

i don't think we're folding to a 3-bet in the original hand, as your question seems to suggest. we almost don't mind a 3-bet with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].. it might be a bit -EV, but its well worth the risk.

[QTip]

I wouldn't think so. I think what we most fear here is the spade flush. Gives us the nut flush redraw if a spade did fall on the turn, I think greatly improves our hands and we can simply push for value here...