Flop play w/ AA, big pot - Page 2

piocet · #11 03-14-2005, 05:24 AM

I raise the flop to drive out backdoor draws. By not raising, you are giving them the right pot odds to draw to all kinds of runner runner flush, str8 etc.

I also think it may increase your winning. UTG very likely holds QQ or KK and he is going to reraise and bet out again on turn.

noneckdude · #12 03-14-2005, 09:48 AM

You probably won't drive out someone holding AT (or anyone else with 5 outs) because the pot is offering sufficient odds even if you raise on the flop (assuming UTG+1 won't re-raise). Someone holding any pair however (drawing to 2 outs), would not be getting sufficient odds to call a raise cold.

chief444 · #13 03-14-2005, 09:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise the flop in this spot to give people an opportunity to make a really bad coldcall. If the button has KQ for example, we get rich when he calls two cold on the flop. I don't expect anyone to fold a pair on this flop for any number of bets, but I feel like we might get enough value from people making piss poor calls to make it correct to pop the flop. Again I think that you line is fine against decent players who won't make these bad calls. But against calling machines I like getting the value straight away here.

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QTip · #14 03-14-2005, 10:19 AM

Josh:

I don't think this is a misapplication of the "Extremely Large pot wait until turn to raise example". However, I think there's value in either decision.

We can protect from something like a middle or bottom here with their 5 outs by waiting until the turn, so there's value in protection there.

However, I think that would have been more valuable with a couple more callers behind us. Since this is only three hands and we have a calling station behind us, I think our edge on this flop is so large on this board and it's only 3 handed, we can go ahead and exploit the edge right now.

I would raise the flop here.

btspider · #15 03-14-2005, 10:39 AM

i'd probaby raise the flop, smooth call a 3-bet, and then raise his turn bet. kinda of the best of both worlds. AK could bet the flop, but likely won't bet the turn into 3 opponents. His other cap worthy hands shouldn't fear AA just yet and should be 3-betting the flop for us.

Of course, this line makes the turn pot a bit larger, but with a PF capper left to act, facing two bets cold could fold some 5 outers.

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but by calling the flop, we give the cold-callers odds to call with pocket pairs.. people love to cold-call with PP's, so it may be best to give the improper odds on the flop.

QTip · #16 03-14-2005, 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
haven't seen it mentioned yet, but by calling the flop, we give the cold-callers odds to call with pocket pairs.. people love to cold-call with PP's, so it may be best to give the improper odds on the flop.

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Good point.

I mentioned this a couple of posts up...but I'm wondering if you would simply call if we had 2 or 3 callers behind us. This situation would seem to make much more sense to call the flop bet and then raise the turn to protect. Does that make sense?

PokerBob · #17 03-14-2005, 11:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 is an unknown.
MP2 is very loose/passive, and the reason I'm at the table.
The Button is also too loose, but relatively unknown.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, Button folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (14.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

Yeah?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect.

btspider · #18 03-14-2005, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I mentioned this a couple of posts up...but I'm wondering if you would simply call if we had 2 or 3 callers behind us. This situation would seem to make much more sense to call the flop bet and then raise the turn to protect. Does that make sense?

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i'm not sure i know what you mean. if i raise the flop, the callers both cold-call, and UTG+1 3-bets.. then i'm passing up on a value raise in order to protect my hand on the turn.

rmarotti · #19 03-14-2005, 11:13 AM

How do you see this as differing significantly from the "Two Overpair Hands" section of SSH. I think a flop raise is for value here and ought to be done to maximize winrate.

pshabi · #20 03-14-2005, 11:22 AM

Queens or jacks can have a lot of equit too depending on the board.