Flop play w/ AA, big pot

cold_cash · #1 03-14-2005, 03:05 AM

UTG+1 is an unknown.
MP2 is very loose/passive, and the reason I'm at the table.
The Button is also too loose, but relatively unknown.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, Button folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (14.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

Yeah?

noneckdude · #2 03-14-2005, 03:29 AM

I would raise the flop. The Button was getting 20.5:1 from the pot on the flop.

JoshuaD · #3 03-14-2005, 03:31 AM

I like it. 10:1 is good enough odds for anyone with any equity to call. A turn raise is the only thing protecting your hand.

mr pink · #4 03-14-2005, 03:38 AM

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Yeah?

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yeah.

JoshuaD · #5 03-14-2005, 03:43 AM

I'm thinking about it, and if they've got a runner-runner, you're better off raising the flop. If they catch one of their runners on the turn they'll (probably) be right to call 2 to see the river.

Even considering that, I like waiting until the turn here.

dblgutshot · #6 03-14-2005, 04:19 AM

I thought with aces, your equity is so large that you should just raise the flop, whereas if you had queen or jacks, it would be better to wait until the turn to raise?

wrto4556 · #7 03-14-2005, 04:23 AM

Aces are still vulnerable, but I wouldn't say so on this flop. What are some thoughts about raising the flop for value. I don't think you will lose enough on a board like this to make you have to raise the turn to protect. Take their money while they are willing to give it out.

Shillx · #8 03-14-2005, 04:24 AM

Is this the best way to maximize your chances of winning this big pot? Yeah.

The question is...can we get enough value from a flop raise to offset the fact that we will win less often when we do raise the flop? I really dunno.

I usually raise the flop in this spot to give people an opportunity to make a really bad coldcall. If the button has KQ for example, we get rich when he calls two cold on the flop. I don't expect anyone to fold a pair on this flop for any number of bets, but I feel like we might get enough value from people making piss poor calls to make it correct to pop the flop. Again I think that you line is fine against decent players who won't make these bad calls. But against calling machines I like getting the value straight away here.

Brad

Yort Mada · #9 03-14-2005, 04:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking about it, and if they've got a runner-runner, you're better off raising the flop. If they catch one of their runners on the turn they'll (probably) be right to call 2 to see the river.

Even considering that, I like waiting until the turn here.

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I dont understand why you wouldnt raise to utg's bet. If people have a draw or top pair they are gonna stick around weither you raise or not. why not get as many bets in as you can in the begining?

+ with these raggers i'd be scared if another big card came ... i dunno. i'm pretty new and i'm sure the answers i get will reflect that. slow play always screws me .

JoshuaD · #10 03-14-2005, 05:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking about it, and if they've got a runner-runner, you're better off raising the flop. If they catch one of their runners on the turn they'll (probably) be right to call 2 to see the river.

Even considering that, I like waiting until the turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont understand why you wouldnt raise to utg's bet. If people have a draw or top pair they are gonna stick around weither you raise or not. why not get as many bets in as you can in the begining?

+ with these raggers i'd be scared if another big card came ... i dunno. i'm pretty new and i'm sure the answers i get will reflect that. slow play always screws me .

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Because if you wait until the turn to raise, a person drawing to say, 5 outs or 4 outs, will get unfavorable odds.

They have the proper odds to call a raise from you on the flop, and if you raise there, they'll have the proper odds to call a bet on the turn (even if UTG+1 bets again and you raise again).

In both cases, they see the turn properly, but when you wait until the turn to raise, if they call to the river they've done so without the odds.