flopped the flush and still uncomfortable

[The Ram]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
push flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

if that's really the line you'd take, you're going to need to explain it, because that seems absurd to me given that i'm 240BB deep when the action gets to me on the flop.
pushing seems a little excessive (insane?) with that much money behind...

[/ QUOTE ]

of your two opponents, the deepest has less than 100BB's left, does a push seem absurd now?

you need to raise this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

the guy who bet the river had me covered...

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
of your two opponents, the deepest has less than 100BB's left, does a push seem absurd now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? The deepest one started the hand with 300bb and has hero covered.

[fsuplayer]

sry, the MP3 is not highlighted, I just saw the first two calls.



I still think you need to push. i dont see how you can balance not letting a Kh or Ah draw cheap w/ not losing a big pot if they flopped the nuts (or 2nd nuts).


you cant do much if they flopped a monster, but you can help not letting them draw cheap

raising a smaller amount does nothing but pot commit you anyway.

[The Ram]

[ QUOTE ]


I still think you need to push. i dont see how you can balance not letting a Kh or Ah draw cheap w/ not losing a big pot if they flopped the nuts (or 2nd nuts).


you cant do much if they flopped a monster, but you can help not letting them draw cheap

raising a smaller amount does nothing but pot commit you anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok that's a fair enough point. now, my question becomes this: is it not worth considering that i'm already up against a better hand? Axs or Kxs are not unreasonable hands to be up against at this point.
i'm not trying to defend calling versus raising, but it's a lot of money to be blowing off drawing dead. if i have $600 to start this hand, my allin raise is incredibly obvious, but i just don't know if it makes complete sense w/ $1400. this is (i think?) compounded by the fact that MP2 is virtually never folding any conceivable hand here, which may also include a better hand or a very live one, to say nothing of MP1 or MP3 who is mysteriously coldcalling w/ god only knows what.
again, not disagreeing per se, but there are a lot of facets that i think are trivialized by the notion of "just moving in" on that flop.

[warlockjd]

+.19 'pot analysis odds here' but you need to get all in as soon as possible IMO. spade or board pairing card scares the @#$ out of me.

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
ok that's a fair enough point. now, my question becomes this: is it not worth considering that i'm already up against a better hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on your plan. If you aren't going to be folding in any circumstances, then it is not worth considering. Even the passive line you took left you with only ~$300 behind.

If you are going to call him down anyway, than pushing all-in at some point is the superior line because you will get paid off by some inferior hands. I don't mind your smooth call on the flop. If the board pairs or a spade falls on the turn, you can get away from the hand. But raise all-in on the turn. The pot is huge.

Were you going to fold on the river if the board pairs or a spade falls and the deepstack puts you all-in? What if a blank fell and he went all-in instead of bet $500?

Why not push the turn and get the money in before he sees the river card? Even if you just call, the pot will be large compared to your remaining stack. So push. You are not getting away from this hand after calling the turn anyway.

[turnipmonster]

one thing no one has mentioned is that if MP3 had the nuts and was a decent player, he would raise the turn to get a sidepot going right away. instead he just calls the allin, leaving no side pot.

given that there is no side pot on the river, his bet must be for value, and then it becomes a question of what hands will he value bet against us there? I contend that he will bet a very wide range of hands against us there because he has no reason to think we have a very good hand. the strongest thing we have done is coldcalled a raise on the flop, which is very fishy looking anyways. also we failed to raise the turn, which would be the normal line with a flush. so I think he will bet many hands there.

--turnipmonster

[neon]

[ QUOTE ]
there are a lot of facets that i think are trivialized by the notion of "just moving in" on that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, by the time action gets to you on the flop, there's ~$650 in the pot, and as turnip pointed out, a push here would be only slightly more than a pot-sized raise.

And I agree w/ FSU that a push on the flop is in order here, not only to protect your hand against a dry A or K of spaids but also for the exact reasons you're questioning the play. Many players will view a push on this flop as a big draw, i.e., a big spaid, and will look you up w/ a set, a made baby flush, or a big pair w/ a spaid.

Anyway, if you don't push the flop, I don't see how you're not getting it all in there on the turn . . .

[Post-Oak]

[ QUOTE ]
one thing no one has mentioned is that if MP3 had the nuts and was a decent player, he would raise the turn to get a sidepot going right away. instead he just calls the allin, leaving no side pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I mentioned his call on the turn (of the relatively small all-in bet) as being indicative of his not having a flush.

Also, if he had the literal nuts (straight flush), he did a great job of just calling this bet. Then he can hope for the overcall. Obviously there are no scare cards when you have a SF. So he could then push on the river into the huge pot and get called by most all hands hero holds.


[ QUOTE ]

I contend that he will bet a very wide range of hands against us there because he has no reason to think we have a very good hand. the strongest thing we have done is coldcalled a raise on the flop, which is very fishy looking anyways. also we failed to raise the turn, which would be the normal line with a flush. so I think he will bet many hands there.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Given the river action, I would push all-in for the last ~$340 over top of his bet. Of course, I think pushing all-in on the turn is a far superior line.

It is a bit of a confusing hand, but hero needs to push all-in on the turn anyway. If he is not going to fold to these pot committing bets, why is he waiting for a scare card to fall? Another spade would be disastrous. The board pairing is bad too.

[BluffTHIS!]

The posters who said smooth call flop and push turn are correct. By only smooth calling on the flop you both induce bets on the turn from hands you can beat and are able to escape more cheaply in a multiway pot if the dreaded 4th spade or pair materializes on the turn. It was your failure to push on the turn that made the hand confusing, thus setting yourself up to make a possibly bad river fold to a lower flush like T9s or to a set that pushed in front even if a 4th spade came. If one of them has AKs/Axs then that's just the breaks. You definitely need to make your decisions on this hand on the flop and turn, rather than on the river after you have given a second card on the cheap.