J8 in the BB

[tiltaholic]

settle down man...have i offended you?
sorry if i did.

i don't think 3-betting is clear in this situation.
i see your explanation, but an unknown poster who raises the flop makes me question whether i am in fact good >50% of the time. and with 2 opponents, shouldn't my percentage be lower? and since this is the flop and not the river, and we have a vulnerable hand, can we even use these percentages to gauge the "correctness" of the raise? does the fact that my hand is vulnerable change anything, like should we wait for the turn perhaps since no one is folding on the flop (maybe)?

i should have voiced my concerns more explicitly instead of being snide...but am still unsure whether raising the flop is correct. and it's likely i am wrong, because i suck at this game, especially these situations. we're all trying to learn here...
-t

[crownjules]

[ QUOTE ]

J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to point out, the J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] came out on the flop.

I'd also 3-bet the flop. You likely have MP3 beat and he's on a draw(s). Everything else is fine.

[Womble]

I think bet the flop, call the raise. Too many people in to reraise with flush/straight/better Js.

On the turn a checkraise would be nice. Unlikely the FR will slow down.

Have to call the river, he may show a 9 but he may have better J and thats it

[Ric]

I like a 3-bet on the flop. Since MP3 posted, and then checked, I think he normally won't have something you're behind of here. Since you only called his flop raise, going for a turn c/r is pretty easy. Tough river, but what else can you do, right.

[dkernler]

Actually, my first thought on the river raise was JT. I think I play this the same way. I think there are lots of hands out there that don't get raised PF and we're behind OTF. Lots of players wouldn't raise with AJ, KJ, QJ, or JT. Not to mention all the diamond draws.

You hit your 2nd pair on the turn, so a bet is probably OK. Others have mentioned that a CR would be better. You'd probably get an extra BB from both MP3 and CO, so it does seem to be the better play.

On the river, I really have no fear of a 9. I value bet this and call it back because of the size of the pot.

I still think you got beat by JT.

[Gambler]

Duh...good point.

My question is, isn't this a case of a weak made hand in a small pot. Wouldn't it be better to check the flop and see what develops? Why do we want to come out firing on the flop in this spot and 3 bet when it comes back to us? Seem like we'll be the ones paying off, not getting paid. I could see betting this flop if we were in late position and it was checked to us (of course then we may not be in this hand to begin with) Or maybe bet out on the flop in our current position with a heart on the board instead of 2 diamonds, etc. What am I missing here?

[Marquis]

What your missing is that we very likely have the best hand, but a vulnerable one. We can't afford to let this one get checked through.

[Gambler]

We can't afford to let a 5 sb pot get checked through?