20-40 Commerce Cold 4 Bet - Page 2

mike l. · #11 02-22-2005, 10:06 PM

"if i were to check raise the flop and i get 3-bet, i'm still calling down right?"

nah. it would mean he has to have you badly beat. you can fold then. or call down, it doesnt really matter. you lose two bets extra when youre beat but you get all sorts of extra bets from the other stragglers the times youre ahead or spike a Q on the river.

"i can't do the math but the only hands i could put him on was AA, KK, AKs, QQ, JJ..."

nah he could have other hands, all anyone has done in the hand is check and call so he could bet any pair on the turn and think it's probably still good.

"after he bet the river the only hands I put him on was AA, KK, QQ, JJ, no player like that would bet into 4 opponenets with AK..."

ive seen stranger things.

"i figured i want to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, was i wrong?"

no that's fine. i just think that a turn raise here would have a bit more edge because of the sb and other guy calling along. and preflop capper may even slow down with a better hand sometimes. higher limits most everyone would repump again there with AA and KK so the turn checkraise is tougher call there, but most 20-40 players are too scared too often and theyll just call down with KK there.

Klepton · #12 02-22-2005, 11:01 PM

he looked right at me and said "i have two queens" and i just sank in relief and said "nice freakin hand" and showed my queens also...we then got to taling and he said how because i didn't bet the flop he figured me for jacks

this brings up a small question, so you think by me check raising the flop or checkraising the turn, would this guy ever let go of his hand the same way you guys advised me to?

mike l. · #13 02-22-2005, 11:15 PM

"would this guy ever let go of his hand the same way you guys advised me to?"

you mean is this guy going to fold QQ on that board?

no chance. never.

onegymrat · #14 02-22-2005, 11:33 PM

I really don't see how attempting to checkraise is the best play here with three opponents. Many agree that although the 4-bettor is most likely to keep betting, but may hold an assortment of hands, not enough emphasis is put on the fact that there are two other opponents that you keep letting in. The pot is already very big. You already maintained that SB is clueless, and could have anything. Do you really want her to see the turn with a gutshot/small pair for only one bet? I can see this as a plausible solution if you held aces, but there are still two overcards out there. Also, can you count on 4-bettor to bet the turn as well?

Checkraising the flop or the turn assumes the fact that you are way ahead, but it will not chase them out of seeing the river, since it's only one extra raised bet for them to call. As Mike L. said, if 4-bettor has a bigger pp, so be it, but I would do all I can to chase out the other two so that the only hand that beats me is 4-bettor, and not by over/under playing QQ and letting some schmuck catch up. And the best way to approach this IMO is to play off 4-bettor's aggression and bet the flop.

na4bart · #15 02-22-2005, 11:43 PM

You really needed to c/r the villians flop bet. Doesn't matter if he has AA or KK, you need to get the dead money into the pot while giving yourself the best chance to win this large pot if your QQ is the best hand. So he four bets, it doesn't make him superman. Yikes!

BradL · #16 02-23-2005, 12:02 AM

The point is that no one is folding this hand at any point before the river. If you bet the turn the flop bettor will likely only raise with hands that beat you. Since protecting your hand is out of the question checkraising the turn to get the most in when you are ahead is the best viable option.

-Brad

El Dukie · #17 02-23-2005, 12:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
50's white clean shaven ipod-wearing guy just to my left. He's only been in 4 hands, all of which he has 3 bet or raised-capped when it got back to him, and has bet the whole way, even value betting vary scary boards, and never showing his hand because no one calls him on the river. After every one ofhis hands I have said "nice hand," and he doesn't respond. (i don't think he likes people)

[/ QUOTE ]

Knock 20 years off the age, substitute a Creative MP3 player for the iPod, and I'm looking in a mirror. Right down to the misanthropy. Especially the misanthropy. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

mike l. · #18 02-23-2005, 01:35 AM

"The point is that no one is folding this hand at any point before the river."

that's what i was gonna say. well done.

andyfox · #19 02-23-2005, 02:44 AM

I disagree that nobody is folding before the river and that, therefore, protecting the hand is impossible. The Commerce players in 20-40 fold more when the pots are bigger than when they're not. This sounds ridiculous but it is true. When the pot is capped pre-flop and then raised on the flop or the turn, they assume you have a big pocket pair and their chances of winning are correspondingly reduced. Anyway, once the pot is big, as it is when capped pre-flop, I'm more concerned about winning it than about getting the most in, unless I have a monster.

Klepton · #20 02-23-2005, 03:40 AM

i'm gonna disagree with you therer, because if they have any chance of beating your big pocket pair (whether it be a 10 outer or a 1 outer) they are going to the river, especially at commerce...

btw the donk in the sb (he called me with King high in one hand because he thought i could be bluffing...he said young kids bluff a lot, who knew) said he folded AK also...

i feel that I am much weaker in live games then online, for example if i were to get raised on the river after i value bet, and i fold... people remember this much more than online where it was a quick hand that many may have not noticed... i'm kinda going into a rant, i'll just stop and say thank you to mike l for thinking the exact same way about all commerce regulars