The word "F-sh": Disrespectful and -EV

[Wetdog]

I think pros call them "producers." It has a nicer ring but the same meaning.

[droolie]

I call them "buddy":

[davelin]

No matter who you are, you're a fish to someone out there...

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
It is a useless term because everyone has their own connotations for the word. Some dude the other day was trying to tell me that a "fish" could be bluff-raising him on the river. I kept telling him "fish don't do this, LAGs do this". His definition of fish was basically "a losing player". It makes it real hard to analyze a hand where the villian is "a losing player". I like more specific reads, and recently the term fish has taken on lots of definitions and it just it tougher to give good advice.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

LP-P's can bluff-raise the river. Maybe it doesn't fit the definition of a "you-know-what" but I have seen loose players with very low postflop aggression levels(<.5) raise me on the river when I have TPTK, let's say. I of course call it because the pot is large and then I check the hand history. Sometimes they try to bluff me with Ace high or something or a busted draw.

So maybe we need a review of the appropriate definitions for each type of player?

All I know is that LP-P's are certainly capable of bluffing and bluff-raising.

TP-P's on the other hand, usually have the goods. I just don't trust really loose players as much.

[nrinker]

haha, deciding not to call them fish so they don't catch on for EV sake could also be deemed disrespectful.

[detruncate]

You're correct. However, I'm not suggesting that we "feel bad" or any such thing. Tying to beat our opponents is the point of the game, and playing anything less than full-out is disrespectful. We're all adults. They explicitly agreed to the rules when they bought-in.

My reaction isn't knee-jerk. I generally think we bestow words with way too much power. I couldn't care less what anyone calls me, even if it falls under the category of "totally unacceptable". When we allow words to hurt us, we give others way too much power. Needlessly so. It's why I have a problem with a lot of the motivation behind political correctness.

My point is very simple, and it has nothing to do with banning the word fish. I'm sufficiently self-reflective to understand at least some of my motives for behaving toward other people in a certain way. It's not so much arrogance that concerns me, it's a question of why I'd feel the need to belittle my opponents. Am I entitled to win? Do I need to reduce them somehow to make it easier for me to take their money? Am I entering into an us vs them dynamic to try to create some sense of personal/group identity? How does any of this help me improve my poker game?

There's just no constructive reason to behave in this way. In fact, I think it's detrimental to our progress. Poker is predatory in the sense that it's amoral. Predators don't hunt because it gives them kicks to chase down and kill other animals. Most serious human-type hunters I've talked to seem to have developed a lot of respect for their prey. The one or two fishing shows I've somehow found myself watching talk more about the impressive qualities of the fish than the opposite.

I'm not advocating a deep emotional attachment. Quite the opposite. I'm suggesting that we'll be better players in the long run if we let go of all the baggage and simply describe our opponents in terms of their tendencies. Fish implies stupid and worthless rather than unskilled.

You may or may not have noticed that I haven't exactly crusaded for this. Quite frankly, it doesn't bother me very much except as a strategy question. Everything I've learned about poker suggests that it's a bad idea, so this should simply be construed as advice. My original response said "stupid and uncalled for". That pretty much sums it up. It holds us back when we allow ourselves to fall into this ridiculous dynamic. That's stupid. It's uncalled for because you'd think we'd have at least enough gratitude toward the people who are paying for the privledge of playing with us to show them a minimum of respect.

Whatever. Raise the flop.

[hackle]

[ QUOTE ]

My reaction isn't knee-jerk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, and I didn't take it that way. In fact, I wasn't referring to your reaction at all with that statement, it was more of a psychological extrapolation based on some earlier poster's sentiments. Your references to ego tripping and predators are what got me thinking about that Schoonmaker article.

Hackle

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Tying to beat our opponents is the point of the game, and playing anything less than full-out is disrespectful. We're all adults. They explicitly agreed to the rules when they bought-in.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well said, detruncate.

[ QUOTE ]
...it's a question of why I'd feel the need to belittle my opponents....It's uncalled for because you'd think we'd have at least enough gratitude toward the people who are paying for the privledge of playing with us to show them a minimum of respect.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are ways people can make themselves feel a certain sense of pleasure or superiority by making less of someone or something else. This can take many forms - some obvious, some subtle. This is called contempt. It is the opposite of respect. However, the pleasure one gets from this making less of the world in order to make more of oneself is only superficially satisfying.

Interestingly, it turns out that having respect for anything outside oneself tends to give one a deeper and more truly satisfying feeling. So we can be selfish and make ourselves feel better by giving other things or people the respect they deserve.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm suggesting that we'll be better players in the long run if we let go of all the baggage and simply describe our opponents in terms of their tendencies. Fish implies stupid and worthless rather than unskilled.

[/ QUOTE ]
Having respect does not mean ignoring faults or pretending not to see weaknesses. On the contrary, respecting something tends to make one look at it more fully and see it more accurately. This may explain why one can play better by having more respect for even their weaker opponents.

=TomBk

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
I call them "buddy":

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember, "Your buddy is not your buddy."

Vern

[memphis57]

I was reading something about the origin of the word "poker." It said that nobody knows for sure, but on the pre-Civil War riverboats before the game was called poker, a "poke" was a slang disrespectful word used by conmen for the act of cheating "marks" in various cardgames. At first, the conmen only used the word among themselves so as not to scare off the marks, but it was speculated that in time the marks learned of the term and began to call the game that, kind of as a pointed joke (the way black men have adopted the word "nigger"). (Note: this is only one of several stories about the origin of "poker" that I saw and I have no idea which one is true.)

But if it is true and the same thing happens again, maybe in 50 years we'll be calling holdem "fisher".