The word "F-sh": Disrespectful and -EV

[KingOtter]

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KO, What I'm suggesting is that not tapping on the glass is not only good advice while at the table, it is good advice for these forums and similar websites that any player can and certainly does access.

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Well, then you're not reading all of the posts. I've seen posted a number of times that the first step towards becoming not a f...er... not playing 'fishy' is reading these boards, and learning the game.

Anyone who invests time, research, and thought into the game is going to stop being a 'loser' and start winning, and therefore, no longer a 'fish'.

One of the things that amazes me about the boards from the beginning is the deference that the new members have concerning their play. 'I think I did something wrong here...', 'I'm by no means an authority, but I think...'.. That kind of thing.

Did you see a hand posted here where someone responded with, 'That was stupid, you fish'? That would surprise me. Astonish me, even.

If they made it this far, it is a step in the right direction. If they stay, then they aren't fish anymore. Chances are they don't KNOW they're fish, honestly, and won't learn it until they learn more about the game.

KO

[KingOtter]

An AA hand I posted in response to someone elses post a while back, where the villain got 2-pair QJ on the river after a raising war on the flop and turn (Q paired on turn, J paired on river) that tilted me beyond belief... I was seriously pissed.

I said 'nh' in the table chat, while I was pounding on the table.

In other words... I agree.. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

KO

[Yobz]

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They'll forget it in 3 seconds.

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3 seconds is the exact length/extent of a goldfishes memory, I've read

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Thats the joke... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Boltsfan1992]

Hiya -

What makes a fish, a fish? When they don't know what they are doing and we know that they are winning because of a lucky streak and not skill.

I call them novice players. They may hate bleeding money to the rest of the table some day and want to learn. When thinking about a particular hand, I use terms Loose Passive, Loose Aggressive, Tight Passive, Tight Aggressive, because if I were to describe that hand to someone else, or post here, my audience would know exactly who/what type of player I am speaking about.

Fish has too many definitions to too many people - even with the connotations involved.

I've always wondered if the novices we have played with before and see again improved their play any...scary when that happens.

FWIW

PB

[detruncate]

My objection to the term has to do with the attitude behind it. There's a hell of a lot of "fish" and "moron" and "idiot" thrown around to describe people who are generally just out to have a good time... and content to pay for it. We're in the poker business, folks. They're our customers. We buy their chips at a discount and sell them back to the site. That's really all there is to it.

We're sharks, they're fish. Preditors and prey. Yadda yadda. Get over yourselves. The extent to which chest pounding ego crap shows up in the world of poker never cease to amaze me.

How often do you see people like Clarkmeister or Stellarwind or GoT talking about fish? It's silly at best, and counter-productive to boot.

My opponents allow me to make a reaonable living doing something I generally enjoy. The least I can do is show a minimum of respect, whether or not they're around to notice.

[Meech]

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KO, What I'm suggesting is that "not tapping on the glass" is not only good advice while at the table, it is also good advice to mind when writing in public forums and on poker websites that are accessible to any player.

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Then why talk strategy at all? Anywhere?

I would think that the discussions surrounding strategy are way more dangerous than some label.

[hackle]

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I don't like the use of the word fish to describe weak players. (I didn't even want to write it in the headline subject.) I think it's disrespectful, insulting, and degrading.


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Is it equally politically incorrect to take their money?

Really... serious poker is fundamentally a predatory game. Using terminology that is in-line with the nature of the game is quite appropriate, in my view.

However, calling a fish a fish at the table is quite -ev.

Hackle

[adsman]

My God, you Americans and your PC rubbish. What's next? Handing a guy a bunch of flowers and some chocolates when you beat him out of a pot?

[DeadManJay]

This probably has a lot to do with my personality away from the table, but I go the completely opposite route when it comes to "fish" and pretty much any other players. Whether I'm in a B&M or playing internet poker, I try to lighten up the mood. I crack corny jokes alot, probably more than I should [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], but it works. When you get people laughing and having a good time they loosen up, alot. I'm sure you've all read somewhere that when you get serious everyone around you will either try to get as serious as you and try to beat you or just leave...So IMO having a sense of humor at the poker table is EV+++.

[hackle]

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We're sharks, they're fish. Preditors and prey. Yadda yadda. Get over yourselves. The extent to which chest pounding ego crap shows up in the world of poker never cease to amaze me.


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I agree with the sentiment behind your last sentence above. "Ego tripping" is extremely counter productive. It prevents introspection and growth. As my father used to say - "arrogance is another form of stupidity." Most people misuse the term "ego" though, at least in a psychological sense. The superego (of which much seems to be manifested in this thread) is just as damaging to one's poker game as "ego tripping" (more properly defined as arrogance.)

Dr. Schoonmaker had some interesting comments in a column of his in Cardplayer:

"The superego starts as part of the ego, but slowly separates itself and becomes a demanding and punitive censor, our “conscience.” It operates on the morality principle, insisting that we obey the rules of our parents and society, creating strong, often destructive feelings of guilt and shame. It can have an immense impact on our play, because poker is so predatory, devious, and deceptive. If the superego makes us feel guilty when we bluff, sandbag, exploit a drunk, or bust someone, we’re at a tremendous disadvantage.

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The stronger the superego, the more inhibitions we have, and the less effectively we will act. To put it bluntly, if our superego prevents us from eating the weak, we’re at a tremendous disadvantage against uninhibited players."

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that someone who has a knee-jerk reaction to the use of the term "fish" would be similarly disadvantaged.

The entire column is a great read. It's here.

Hackle