Doyle bluffs Gus Hansen with nothing & taunts him... then overplays QQ

[That guy]

fwiw,

Both Lederer and Ivey thought it was a 'bad' play...

Me: Phil, was Doyles QQ play the right play or a bad play
Ivey: Bad

[lehighguy]

As people said already, Doyle can't lay this down unless a K or A shows up. AT SOME POINT IN THIS HAND ONE OF THEM WILL GO ALL IN. This talk about him laying down the hand is nonsense. So doyle did what he thought was right, pushed him when he thought he had the best hand. Take the following hand from my own game:

1/2 No limit
Hero has 44 in MP. Several limpers see the flop.
Flop is 4,6,7.
UTG bets 5 (ultra loose passive), several callers including hero.

Turn: 2
Pot: between $40-50
UTG bets 25. Hero has read on him that says he might have straight. UTG would only bet with a hand, but that have could be top pair or two pair or anything. Nevertheless, hero doesn't want to throw away trips. If he calls this round and villian has straight he will simply have to call all in river. However, if villian is behind or on draw he will check/fold river. Also, there are others in hand that could be on draw. So hero raises to $50. Villian calls. RIver is unimportant, villain checks, hero checks. Here he turned over the straight and I saved myself another $25.

However, I think you'll agree the raise->check line is better then the call->call line. Doyle is in an even worse spot then I was. He has three street to worry about rather then two. Wheras I could check river, if Doyle showed weakness at any point in this hand then he would have been put all in anyway. And he has a hand that he could call with.

Anyway that's my opinion. 20/20 hindsight is great huh.

[Daliman]

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The QQ v AA hand just shows how much Doyle fears Gus. Even the once-great Doyle Brunson knows he has no chance of outplaying Gus, so his best chance is to risk it all on an overpair.

I doubt Doyle would have made such a massive overbet against any of the other players at the table. Doyle was just another Chinook at the table hoping not to get too embarassed by Gus. Unfortunately, Doyle ended up looking like the biggest fish at the table.



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Keep reading the forums. You obviously know nothing about poker and have a lot to learn.



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come on, daliman. if you're gonna flame him for that, at least explain what you mean. he was specific (kinda) "doyle made the play because he didn't want to deal with gus on the turn and river, and hoped to take it down right there [my paraphrase]."

at least respond to that, instead of saying that he "obviously knows nothing about poker"

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What hands would Gus call that bet with? I don't think he would call that with TPTK, because Doyle could easily have jacks or better. I don't believe he would call with just a straight or a flush draw because he would be too far behind.

I could only see Gus calling that bet with a pair and a flush draw, which means that Gus would be about a 51/49 favorite. If Doyle is willing to risk his stack with those odds, what does that say about how much Doye fears Gus? If you are willing to risk your entire stack against another player (Doyle was second in chips at the time) on a race, then you are basically admitting that the other player has you outclassed.

What hands do you think Gus would call that bet with?

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I've addressed this in opther threads, and don;t care to get into yet another pissing match with somone who not only doesn't understand poker, but doesn;t seem to know who Doyle Brunson is. Figure it out for yourself.

[betgo]

When you can see the hole cards on TV, it is pretty obvious Gus has AA, so Doyle should fold QQ. What can this Brunson guy be thinking?

If Doyle had made a pot sized raise, Gus would probably have pushed and Doyle would have called. He is getting almost 2-1 on his money at that point. If not, one of them would have pushed on the turn, and the rest of the money would have gone in.

There is some point in pushing rather than putting in enough chips so you are pot committed, like the 10xBB rule preflop. The push looks like a semibluff with some kind of draw or an attempt to protect a hand like AT. Doyle likes to make this kind of play with various kinds of semibluffs. He might cause Gus to call with something like top pair. Gus would probably also fold hands like AK or second or third pair, which have a good chance of beating QQ.

Doyle could have reraised preflop or made a smaller raise on the flop. He would have busted out anyway. Whether or not Brunson's plays are the best, it is probably more useful to look at why he made those plays than to say how we could have played it better. Players like Brunson and Hanson are going to make some suprising plays, because they don't play ABC poker.

[swarm]

All the money was going into the pot after that flop with how this was played pre-flop.

Brunson really likes to be in control of the game and Gus is a major obstacle to Doyle doing that. With Hanson raising every other pot and just folding to a Brunson bluff I think Doyle got "caught in the momentum" and made a mistake. However, with the circumstances they way they where all the money was getting in there anyway.

Brunson was trying to set a tone at the table to take control away from Gus, where he is dangerous and got caught...

You have to give credit to Hanson here though, his style gets people out of their normal startegy routines and gets them to make mistakes. If he times his bluffs and occassionally hits some cards early like he did how can you put the man on anything for the rest of the night.

[niwotyalpi]

originally posted by FishBurger
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The QQ v AA hand just shows how much Doyle fears Gus. Even the once-great Doyle Brunson knows he has no chance of outplaying Gus, so his best chance is to risk it all on an overpair.

I doubt Doyle would have made such a massive overbet against any of the other players at the table. Doyle was just another Chinook at the table hoping not to get too embarassed by Gus. Unfortunately, Doyle ended up looking like the biggest fish at the table

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LOL. It is gonna be hard for anyone to make a more ignorant statement in 2005. I nominate this for the dumbest post of the year.

[Deftoner]

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originally posted by FishBurger
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The QQ v AA hand just shows how much Doyle fears Gus. Even the once-great Doyle Brunson knows he has no chance of outplaying Gus, so his best chance is to risk it all on an overpair.

I doubt Doyle would have made such a massive overbet against any of the other players at the table. Doyle was just another Chinook at the table hoping not to get too embarassed by Gus. Unfortunately, Doyle ended up looking like the biggest fish at the table

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LOL. It is gonna be hard for anyone to make a more ignorant statement in 2005. I nominate this for the dumbest post of the year.

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I second that. Quite possibly the dumbest post of the new century. Doyle fears Gus...lmao.

[StableHand]

That hand was clearly rigged...
"Gus Hansen" is worth more ad-$$$ in 2005 than "Doyle Brunson"!

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Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet, you can't win.

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[Ezcheeze]

I looked through the thread and I don't think anyone mentioned this but if you take into consideration the hand that Doyle bluffed Gus out on then this QQ hand makes alot of sense. I bet thats a big reason why Doyle was so aggressive on the QQ hand, he was hoping Hansen would think he was bluffing again. Hansen would have to at least give STRONG consideration to the chance that Doyle is semibluffing or even on a complete bluff like the other hand. With that in mind I think Doyle played perfectly.

-Ezcheeze

[TheJackal]

Well I do believe it had to do with Gus Hansen's loose image and Doyle not wanting him to draw out on him cheaply. Although this is the exception to the rule, because most of the time Gus folds his draw and Doyle picks up the pot, but I think he didn't have to shove his whole stack in to accomplish this (although I don't see how Doyle would fold to a re-raise, so maybe it was correct). It reminds me of a hand earlier in the PSI where Johnny Chan was playing against Gus, and Gus made his flush on the end and Johnny made the correct read and folded. Johnny had been bluffing, but he was bluffing with the best hand, and not only that he was very aggresive with it (JC is a great player, that hand reminded me of that because I think he knew Gus didn't have him beat until Gus actually had him beat). Any chance he would have played his hand the same way against the other players? I doubt it.

Doyle was in a tough situtation, he had QQ against a LAGy player who just happened to have AA on that hand. Just like Johnny Chan, Doyle was trying to push Gus off his hand/draw, but ran into a better hand. Doyle was unlucky.