Raising a gutshot and backdoor flush... 68s on the button.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
The call preflop is marginal at best, and the flop is an easy fold IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hadn't really noticed the preflop call. I muck this. I need 3 limpers and no LAGs in the blinds to call this preflop.

[meep_42]

If you can't fold this flop or turn, you need to raise the river. You'll definitely get 1 out of the bettor, whereas you may get 0 out of the overcaller.

-d

[applej25]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling the flop getting 8:1 is a better option than folding.

[/ QUOTE ] Why? You are 11-1 to make the gut shot and any backdoor flush or trips are not the nuts so you can not be sure your hand is good even then. Easy fold, and raising is FAR worse than calling, which is bad in itself.

[chief444]

Implied odds...unless you don't think you can make up 3 SB's on the turn and river.

And the backdoor flush is worth something. Not being to the nuts doesn't make much of a difference.

[applej25]

Implied odds is such a poor way to convince yourself that a call is correct here. You cannot imply anything because you don't even know if your hand is good even when you do make it. I can't believe that anyone is even arguing for calling here. There is no question continuing with this hand is -EV no matter how you look at it.

[PokerBob]

IMO the flop raise is OK, as it may allow you to draw for free. The turn call is brutal IMO. If the J hits, you may be NG.

EDIT: I just noticed the double-gutter, so I guess the turn call is OK, as I'd assume the K's count as 1.5-2 outs.

Muck this pre-flop, by the way.

[ugly24]

I dislike play on all streets here (wait, I do like the river call)

Preflop - this is a pretty loose call, even on the button. It's not horrible/aweful and if you're looking for a change of pace type hand this isn't bad, but if your regular starting requirements include 86s with 2 limpers and the blinds to go you might want to reconsider.

Flop : You have a gutshot (4 outs) and a backdoor flush (1 - 1.5 outs). There are 8 SB when it gets to you. A call here seems justifiable, but I don't see how a raise helps. You don't have a whole lot of pot equity, you aren't going to drive out players (and you don't really want to anyhow). Call and hope to get lucky.

Turn : This is a marginal call at best. Yes, you have a dubl gut shot, but I wudn't really be excited about seeing a J on the river as u lose to any K. If u hit the 7 your 8 is probably good.

River : wait, I like this play. Call looking for the overcall makes sense to me here.

I hope it worked out, but do you see what the loose preflop call got you into?

Play Well!
The Ugly One!

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Implied odds is such a poor way to convince yourself that a call is correct here.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you believe you'll get no callers if you catch your straight? OK then.

[ QUOTE ]
You cannot imply anything because you don't even know if your hand is good even when you do make it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sure you're right that you'll be up against J8 often here. OK then.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe that anyone is even arguing for calling here. There is no question continuing with this hand is -EV no matter how you look at it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mind boggling isn't it? OK then.

[applej25]

So your going to pay to see this turn 11 times and miss for that 1 time you hit it and gain a couple extra bets (maybe)? And what about when someone DOES have J8 and you LOSE even more bets cause you thought you were raising with the best hand? Convince yourself all you want this play is way to loose for any hope of being a consistent winner.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
So your going to pay to see this turn 11 times and miss for that 1 time you hit it and gain a couple extra bets (maybe)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going to pay 1 SB closing the action. I'm going to catch my straight about 1 time in 11. I'm almost always going to gain 2BB's plus, probably an average of over 4BB's on the last two streets. It is still a 4-way pot. And my hand will be good a VERY high percentage of the time when I do catch a 7.

[ QUOTE ]
And what about when someone DOES have J8 and you LOSE even more bets cause you thought you were raising with the best hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
How often do you think that happens?

Do you fold pocket pairs any time there are fewer than 7 people in preflop? Do you worry that much about a bigger set when you flop them? What is it about implied odds you don't seem to be understanding?