Can't... stop... calling... argh...

[Grendel]

Good point about the medium pocket pairs. I underestimated the number of hands I had beat.

With that in mind, I guess I, too, couldn't see playing this any other way. It's just that c-c-calling like a telemarketer on autodial just felt so... dirty. Especially from a crazed maniac like me who raises with ATs in EP. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I'm still having trouble figuring out if the flop call with the gutshot, backdoor flush, and dirty ace was OK.

-Grendel

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
a crazed maniac like me who raises with ATs in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, slow down a little, you LAG! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I take from the tone and contents of your original post, that you didn't win this hand. What did Villian show?

[cowboyzfan]

What is interesting here is people who even mentioned the idea of not raising UTG+1 are insulted and basically told to go away. Yet...

My copy of Holdem Poker by Sklansky says to limp with ATS from early position.

My copy of Internet Texas Hold'em by Hilger says to limp with ATs from early position

My copy of Middle Limit Hold'em by Ciaffone says generally to limp with ATs from early position

My copy of Small Stake Hold'em by Miller says in a tight game, you should limp with ATs from early position.

Now, I made clear in my post that I was no authority and just wanted to hear how many thought a raise was best and why. I read very few "why's" and lots of insults to those who are not experts.

Also, the original post said nothing about the nature of the table.

[BottlesOf]

El Sapo's post is perfect. Feel free to ignore all others.

[jkstay]

What about raising the flop?

This should give hero a better idea of where he stands, in addition to hopefully giving him a free card on the turn. If villain 3-bets, I probably call the raise and check/fold the turn unimproved. But I think the possibility of getting a free card on the turn makes up for the chance of a 3 bet (plus hero gets to become the aggressor instead of the defender).

I'm still a relative newbie, so I could be way off in this thinking. But if I am way off, if someone could explain why I'm wrong, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,
JK

[BottlesOf]

Why raise the flop? Getting 3-bet sucks, and is distinctly possible given the aggressive way the hand has been played. The notion that a raise gains information in heads up pots is quite overused.

Hero is probably behind at this point, if he's not, he certainly doesn't want his opponent to fold, so raising is not good.

Hero has a gutshot and some tainted A outs in addition to backdoor draws. Call and hope for some sugar.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
What is interesting here is people who even mentioned the idea of not raising UTG+1 are insulted and basically told to go away. Yet...

My copy of Holdem Poker by Sklansky says to limp with ATS from early position.

My copy of Internet Texas Hold'em by Hilger says to limp with ATs from early position

My copy of Middle Limit Hold'em by Ciaffone says generally to limp with ATs from early position

My copy of Small Stake Hold'em by Miller says in a tight game, you should limp with ATs from early position.

Now, I made clear in my post that I was no authority and just wanted to hear how many thought a raise was best and why. I read very few "why's" and lots of insults to those who are not experts.

Also, the original post said nothing about the nature of the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

HEPFAP doesn't apply to these limits much, if at all.

ITH, from everything I've heard, is a horrible book. I've avoided it, so I can't personally comment.

MLHE, from what I've heard, is an excellent book, but is written to target players that are generally tighter and better than your average 3/6 goon.

SSH draws the line in tight games at AJs, but mentions ATs several times as a hand that is generally best to raise, if the pot has not yet been raised.

The basic thing most of us were trying to point out is that raising ATs UTG isn't required, but anyone saying it is "definitely incorrect" to raise is wrong. Limping with it is fine, but raising with it is often better.

If you read the aforementioned posts by Dynasty, you'll see quite a few reasons laid out by an expert as to why raising with ATs is great.

Rob

[JinX11]

My apologies if you felt that I insulted you and told you to go away - re-reading the thread, I missed where I made such a post.

However, in the course of re-reading, I did find a post in the thread specifying how you can find a couple of threads where raising ATs in EP is discussed ad nauseam and condoned by *indeed* an expert.

I don't think HPFAP and MLH really apply to Party 3/6; Internet Texas Hold'em is just plain awful compared to other sources. You are right that SSHE draws a distinction in the play of ATs in tight game vs. a loose game; that, in and of itself, should certainly help in dispelling the notion that raising ATs in EP is "definitely" incorrect.

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]
Its definently incorrect to raise first in with this EP. You call and hope to build the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise because you have a good hand, but you don't particularly mind if people cold-call because you have a good multi-way hand with two draws to the nuts.

[Grendel]

[ QUOTE ]
I take from the tone and contents of your original post, that you didn't win this hand. What did Villian show?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I didn't win. Maybe I should be less obvious when posting such things, especially when my line turns out to be at least reasonable!

Villain showed AJo, which caused me to
A) lose the hand
B) make a nice little note on him

Thanks for all the replies.

-Grendel