Bellagio 8/16 hand against a young table coach (long).

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have laid down your hand on the turn as to me, it is obvious you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes.

[EnderW27]

"I explained to him that i didnt want him to check behind me with his crap hand or missed draw, and I also didnt want to pay 3 bets to see QQ. He had a perplexed look on his face for a bit"

I would have a perplexed look too! These two sentences tell a lot about how you think, even after the hand is over.
You didn't want to check the river for fear he'd check down his miss? Tell me, what two cards to a busted draw could he possibly have that would CALL your river bet?

[Oblivious]

I was going to check call the river, only because i figured he put me on a weak hand.

Im not trying to show off how bad I owned him or anything like that, I just honestly want opinions on how others would play this hand. This was ~level 15 thinking, and I believe I was using it on a TAG player.

If this is really a negative ev call, then I'll make a point of not doing it... even against TAG players. But who honestly makes this laydown to an aggressive player? If you do make this laydown against a TAG, you would surely call against a maniac right?

Does anyone think his 88 against a loose passive player is worse?

[Oblivious]

AK only, good point.

[Fat Nicky]

You need to get off the fact that AK is a likely holding for someone that raises pre-flop, then raises the turn w/no A or K on the board. Is it possible? Anything's possible. But not at the frequency where plays like the one you made is +EV.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have laid down your hand on the turn as to me, it is obvious you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Count me in on this one.

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
Later on he checked in first position with 88 to a LAG in LP who bet on a board of KK8. He checkraises, and a weak tight player in MP reraises. LAG folds and Coach calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that the board was KK3 or KK6. If it was, this is a far more standard move with that holding on that flop. You described the opponent as a LAG, who would bet with a lot more than a K on that board. Obviously when the coach gets 3-bet, he knows he is behind, but calling one more SB in that spot is fine to see if he gets lucky on the turn. If he didn't, I'm sure he would have check-folded the turn unimproved.

Do you see the difference in his play and yours?

[SirFWALGMan]

Can someone answear a really newbie -- passive player (working on it) -- question for me: Why not fold 99 on the flop? Is it because AA,QQ,JJ, AJ are so rare with 4 people in that if you can make the overcards or 10-J fold by the checkraise it is a good move? I am trying to work on aggression, and this seems like a situation I see alot: I have a smallish pair and a few people are in, I miss the flop, there are some overcards, so why would I add 2-bets? Is this only a higher level 6/12 move and is totally wasted on 3/6 or 5/10? Just wondering.

[Oblivious]

yes... i meant the board was KK5... thanks

[ErrantNight]

it seems like it's all been pretty much covered here...

but to join the chorus:

your read on the turn/river is pretty awful. you're behind on the turn, except to a bluff of which you're putting your opponent on EXACTLY AK (which has 10 outs against you), not even seriously considering that you're PROBABLY way behind with only 2 outs... get off your thinking that he's got you read and is playing against that. He actually has cards, and is probably playing them. People at my home game do this all the time, make a read on me, or make a read on my read of them, and play that, ignoring the lay of the board, their cards, and my actual holdings. Fortunately, we're mainly drinking, cards are just the activity to encourage alcohol.

anyway, you make it to the river, and since you've made your miracle draw, you switch from him having an unlikely worse hand to him poassibly having an even MORE unlikely monster...

just bad thinking all around.

and in the hand you're comparing it to... checking in first position w/ 88 is not terrible, he's already committed 2 sb's and is getting something like 1:10.5 on his money in a situation where you should almost ALWAYS make a loose call, even with slightly worse odds (assuming they weren't better) planning to fold the turn unimproved... which it seems pretty clear he was.

more than letting a table coach get under your skin and arguing with him (bad idea, but you know this), you need to work on being fluid with your thinking, but consistent, and maintain perspective on what's likely, not what you'd like or could see. you're clearly a thinking player, and you know a lot of the right plays... but as ABC as your table coach played, it sounds like his game was better than yours, and particularly better suited for the table... aside from the table coaching.

cheers.