Bellagio 8/16 hand against a young table coach (long).

[Oblivious]

Cross posted from the general holdem forum. At Bellagio 8/16 later in the night a table coach sat down 3 to my right (young guy, maybe a 2+2er). I could immediately profile him as an experienced tight aggressive limit player. These types of players have a different posture in their seats and their eyes are constantly directed between the pot, the flop, and thier opponents hands during betting. New players have more tention in their face (as if theyre trying hard to concentrate), and their eyes are much more busy, since theyre not quite sure what to look at. Theyll look at the dealers face, their opponents faces, their own chip stacks. Im the type of player who is immediatly pegged as tough, since when I play a pot (rarely) im comming in for a raise. I also checkraise on occation and sometimes get caught bluffing. I know it sounds strange in a two plus two thread, but players like this are actually rare in live low limit games. The point is, I knew the Coach at the table knew what type of player he was against when he was in a hand with me.

The hand:
Im in the BB with 99. Two limpers and Coach raises in the cutoff. Folded to me and I call as do the limpers (4 players, 8.5 SB). Flop is J 7 5. We check to Coach, and I checkraise to isolate him. The limpers fold as planned and Coach just calls. At this point Im putting coach on AK, AQ, AT, or AA-TT but not JJ. The turn is (J 7 5) Q. Now, Coach knows what sort of player hes playing against. There was nothing tricky about my checkraise from the big blind... I was a good player making an obvious textbook expert play WITH EITHER A WEAK HAND OR NOTHING AT ALL. Coach knows I would do this with a hand like JT or if I planned on isolating him and just outright bluffing, but he knows Im not going to do this with a strong hand like AJ, two pair or a set. I bet out on the turn and he raises. I call getting 9:1. So maybe he has AQ, or maybe hes just trying to resteal with AK. AA-QQ are rare possibilities. The river is (J 7 5 Q) 9. Excellent, I was making a crying call down and got lucky. The only hand Im worried about now is QQ. What Im more worried about is him checking behind me for a free showdown. I decide to bet out, and call a raise so I only pay 2 bets to see QQ rather than 3 if I attempt to checkraise. I also protect myself from a free showdown. I show my set of nines and coach mucks.

He then goes on and on to a friend near the table, saying "I dont know why everytime I raise people put me on AK. AK is the only hand he beats with that desperation call on the turn." I ask, why was it a desperation call? How did I know you had a pair of nines beat? I say that AK was one of the hands I put him on, and was actually more likely becuase one of the Q's was on the board (this is only trivially correct, but more designed to be a needle for our table expert). He says, "Ohh its more likely that I have AK than AQ even after I raise the turn? Im pretty sure i had a pair of nines beat if i raised the turn! I have a much different style than you, only I read hands much better than you do." Here's where our estimation of one another as players comes in. If that raise came from an unimaginative player, who had no idea i was up to something fishy, I would have folded. But my weakness was apparent to coach, and he could have made that turn raise with nearly any two cards (just like I could have). What was really funny, was his critisism that I couldnt read hands. He wondered why I bet out and didnt try to checkraise on the end... while stating that the play didnt make any sense. I explained to him that i didnt want him to check behind me with his crap hand or missed draw, and I also didnt want to pay 3 bets to see QQ. He had a perplexed look on his face for a bit, and I say to him "OHHH, so it makes sense now? Maybe I do know what Im doing." He replys: "No... what youre saying is you really didnt have a read at all." I reply, I dont have to put you on one hand, and one hand only to have a read do I? If i do, I guess I didnt have a read then. It ended there.

To me his argument was that youre only reading hands if you decide youre beat and fold, or decide youre winning and raising. Later on he checked in first position with 88 to a LAG in LP who bet on a board of KK8. He checkraises, and a weak tight player in MP reraises. LAG folds and Coach calls. He hits a set on the turn and checkraises and makes one more bet on the end. Weak tight player of course had a K. I say, "thats kind of a desperation call on the flop there dont you think?" He replies "No!, it was only 8 more dollars." I said, "You think you have odds to draw to two outs there?!" He says he has implied odds, cuz hes going to get paid off if he hits, unlike me who bets out on the end when I hit. It seemed like a pretty similar play to me, but he thinks mine was worse, because he had better odds. I think mine was better because I was up against a decent player who knew what I was up to and was likely enough to have a weaker hand than mine. He was up against a bad player who was almost garunteed to have a better hand than him. If my play was bad, his was god aweful.

[sthief09]

his line of call the flop raise, then raise the turn is clearly a sign that he has you beat. I don't think he's thinking as deeply as you're giving him credit for. it's the straightforwardly tricky, but you shouldn't be fooled. either that or he caught a Q. so you should muck to the turn raise. you shouldn't have ruled out JJ. ironically, if he 3-bet the flop, you could've ruled out JJ

also, on the river he doesn't have QQ or JJ that often because it's mathematically not that common, so your goal shouldn't be minimizing losses, it should be maximizing a win.

and now that I've read the dialogue, I don't know why you're posting this. he's right about the hand reading thing. he obviously beats a pair of 9s on the turn. you're overthinkign there. he's not expecting you to lay down TPTK or something. he's raising because he wants your money. pretty much no one lays down top pair. also, you argued strategy at the table with someone else which is TERRIBLE. then you post here as if to show us how bad you owned him. well, I hate to break it to you, but you should've laid down on the turn.

[flair1239]

SOunds like the table coach got under your skin. So much so that you felt the need to let everyone at the table know just what a solid thinking player that you are.

Listening to table coach=annoying. Arguing with table coach=nonproductive.

[bisonbison]

I was a good player making an obvious textbook expert play...

When I make a play like this, I just announce it, cause I get so pissed when people miss out:

"HAY GUYS, I AM MAKING A TEXTBOOK EXPERT PLAY. SEE IF YOU CAN GUESS THE SUITS ON MY PAIR OF NINES."

Thanks for the crosspost.

[Fat Nicky]

You should have laid down your hand on the turn as to me, it is obvious you are beat.

[Oblivious]

Sure I shouldnt have debated with him bison, I grant that, and im better prepared not to next time... What do you think of my play though?

I need someone to back me up. I'd make this turn raise everytime while holding AK. I grant the call was probably boarderline, but its nowhere near a huge mistake when compared with folding. Given my understanding of how good players will play, he's bluffing often enough for a call to be profiable i think. I cant just fold everything worse than top pair to good players everytime they decide to raise me on the turn.

[MoreWineII]

I'm with the rest of the gang. You were beat on the turn and you got lucky.

In my experience, you usually don't need to waste your level 15 thinking on the table coach. They're usually pretty ABC. Save your advanced strategies for thinking TAG's.

[bisonbison]

I need someone to back me up. I'd make this turn raise everytime while holding AK.

Why? How often does a flop checkraiser fold a better hand here?

Anyway, back to the actual setup: you have an underpair to 2 board cards against a preflop raiser who bets the flop and raises the turn:

Let's assume he has 2+2 type raising standards. If he would do this with every single hand he raised preflop, given card distributions, what is the likelihood that you are ahead?

What is the average number of outs you have to improve when you are behind?

What odds is the pot laying you on the turn call?

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
I need someone to back me up. I'd make this turn raise everytime while holding AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you are severely overplaying AK. I'm not saying it's never correct to do this, but everytime? You need to pick your spots carefully when making a play like this.

[ QUOTE ]
Given my understanding of how good players will play, he's bluffing often enough for a call to be profiable i think. I cant just fold everything worse than top pair to good players everytime they decide to raise me on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop overthinking straightforward situations, you'll make the right play more often.

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd make this turn raise everytime while holding AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO That would be another example of poor play.

I don't necesarily 100% hate your call on the turn though, you've put a lot of money into the pot, you were going to check fold the river unimproved no?