Poll: Should aces always be capped preflop?

[Lansing]

I'm done with this thread too. Anyone who disagrees with my non-cap there simply doesn't understand the strategic dynamics at play in that hand. It would have been wrong to cap, though of course not catastrophically wrong. But clearly and unequivocally wrong. Reread everything else I have written on this, and if you can actually come up with a GOOD reason for me to have capped, then I'm happy to respond. But mindless morons telling me that I should cap simply because I am holding aces have a deficient understanding of advanced poker strategy and are not worth responding to anymore.

[soah]

You should never cap with aces preflop if it's a huge multiway pot and by just calling you'll be able to check-raise a bettor on your immediate left and trap the field for another one bet cold. This line allows you to keep the pot smaller while you have the nuts, and keep in hands that are drawing live against you. And if you only cold-call a three-bet preflop, you're likely to completely amaze your opponents by turning over a quality hand, while capping would surely inform everyone that they are beaten. It's important to be really sneaky like that against bad players.

[stinkypete]

you should cap because you're against 3 other opponents that are willing to put a total of 1.5BB more into the pot with very inferior hands.

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
You should never cap with aces preflop if it's a huge multiway pot and by just calling you'll be able to check-raise a bettor on your immediate left and trap the field for another one bet cold. This line allows you to keep the pot smaller while you have the nuts, and keep in hands that are drawing live against you. And if you only cold-call a three-bet preflop, you're likely to completely amaze your opponents by turning over a quality hand, while capping would surely inform everyone that they are beaten. It's important to be really sneaky like that against bad players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Idiotic. I'd be trapping them for two bets cold, as the KK would have raised right in front of me. Putting in an extra bet PF that is likely to a) cost you money and b) damage your ability to protect your hand is utterly moronic. It's not two-card stud, bonehead.

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
you should cap because you're against 3 other opponents that are willing to put a total of 1.5BB more into the pot with very inferior hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my response to the other idiot. It's not two card stud. If you aren't thinking about the best way to a) win the pot and b) win as much money as possible then you're a simplistic thinker and it will cost you money longterm.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who disagrees with my non-cap there simply doesn't understand the strategic dynamics at play in that hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you said this was Party 5/10. You act like it's the effin big game at the Bellagio.

The strategic dynamics say you get in an extra 1.5 BB against a bunch of hands that you have dominated. Please stop talking about protecting your hand and show us where you're going to gain more than 1.5 BB after the flop by cold-calling. Seriously, do the math.

Justin A

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who disagrees with my non-cap there simply doesn't understand the strategic dynamics at play in that hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you said this was Party 5/10. You act like it's the effin big game at the Bellagio.

The strategic dynamics say you get in an extra 1.5 BB against a bunch of hands that you have dominated. Please stop talking about protecting your hand and show us where you're going to gain more than 1.5 BB after the flop by cold-calling. Seriously, do the math.

Justin A

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, here's the math. Your point is that I want to put in 1.5 more BB preflop, because I am highly likely to win the hand with my aces. So let's go through this, shall we?

Let's assume the fish does not hit his miracle, so we can assess how much I would have won (since your point is that I want to make maximal money off a winning hand). Given what I knew about the players in the hand, here is how it would have probably gone with me capping, had I bet out the flop (8 BB in the pot).

I bet out the flop, fold, call, call = 1.5 BB

I bet out the turn, call, call. = 3 BB

I bet out the river, fold (we're assuming he misses), call = 2 BB

Total pot = 14.5 BB

Now let's be more charitable, and assume I could have CRed the KK on the flop even if I'd capped (and I almost certainly could not have, but I'll humour you). Here's what that would look like:

I check the flop, check, check, bet, I raise, fold, call, call = 3 BB

I bet out the turn (because I don't want to give a free card now and I know the weak tight player will likely check behind me), call, call. = 3 BB

I bet out the river, fold (we're assuming he misses), call (or possibly fold) = 1/2 BB

Total pot = 15.5/16.5 BB

Now let's look at what actually happened. I don't cap, so we have 6 BB in the pot to start with and the weak tight KK thinks it is good (probably puts me on a big ace).

I check the flop, check, check, bet, I raise, fold, call, RAISE (the KK thinks it is good), call, call = 4.5 BB

I am now able to CHECK the turn, check, bet, I raise, call, RERAISE (KK still thinks it is good, but now I am worried about QQ), call, call. = 9 BB

I bet out the river, fold (we're assuming he misses), call = 2 BB

Total pot = 21.5 BB

Now if the fish had have had some piece of the flop but not improved, I might have had another BB on the river. If the KK had have raised me on the river, putting me on AQ, I would have had a possible 2 more BB on the river. The only way I was able to build this big a pot was because I was able to CR the KK twice. This also forced the fish into a greivous postflop error (which sadly he got away with).

Furthermore, had the UTG capped, as I expected, and bet out the flop, as we would all have expected, I would have been able to CR the field for 3 bets on the flop, and possibly got a cap from the KK. I might also have been able to CR the KK on the turn AGAIN. The key to this hand was preserving the thought in the KKs mind that he was ahead. The sacrifice of 1.5 BB preflop put me in position to a) win a bigger pot (which is your point) and b) protect my hand more effectively through checkraising.

Christ, the more I write about this, the more I simply cannot understand how the people who are criticizing me have any business doing so.

[ML4L]

Hey Lansing,

I don't really play limit, so I'm not going to chime in with my opinion. But, here are the reasons that you and the rest of the posters are never going to come to an agreement.

1) You are giving your opponents more credit than others think you should.

2) I agree that the board came down very well for your plan and, in this specific instance, you actually may have done better flat-calling preflop. But, the board is not going to come down queen-high rainbow every time. So, on the whole, the posters do not feel that you are going to recoup the 1.5 BBs that you risk missing preflop often enough to make smoothcalling correct.

I have no idea who is right/wrong. But, neither side is ever going to convince the other (partially because everyone has stopped being civil, so everyone is too ego-involved now). I hope that this question somehow makes it to the mid/high forum, because I'd love to see what the undisputed experts say.

ML4L

[Lansing]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Lansing,

I don't really play limit, so I'm not going to chime in with my opinion. But, here are the reasons that you and the rest of the posters are never going to come to an agreement.

1) You are giving your opponents more credit than others think you should.

2) I agree that the board came down very well for your plan and, in this specific instance, you actually may have done better flat-calling preflop. But, the board is not going to come down queen-high rainbow every time. So, on the whole, the posters do not feel that you are going to recoup the 1.5 BBs that you risk missing preflop often enough to make smoothcalling correct.

I have no idea who is right/wrong. But, neither side is ever going to convince the other (partially because everyone has stopped being civil, so everyone is too ego-involved now). I hope that this question somehow makes it to the mid/high forum, because I'd love to see what the undisputed experts say.

ML4L

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post. Summed things up well.

[jfresh]

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Anyone who disagrees with my non-cap there simply doesn't understand the strategic dynamics at play in that hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you said this was Party 5/10. You act like it's the effin big game at the Bellagio.

The strategic dynamics say you get in an extra 1.5 BB against a bunch of hands that you have dominated. Please stop talking about protecting your hand and show us where you're going to gain more than 1.5 BB after the flop by cold-calling. Seriously, do the math.

Justin A

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, here's the math. Your point is that I want to put in 1.5 more BB preflop, because I am highly likely to win the hand with my aces. So let's go through this, shall we?

...


[/ QUOTE ]
how come in the situations where you capped, the KK never 3bets or even re-reraises you, but in the real situation, KK 3bets a CHECKRAISE not once but TWICE.

my argument with you is that you made the KK two completely different players, just to support your side. you think KK is going to possibily fold the river??

maybe it was the correct play at the time, for exactly what your opponents held, and for what came on the board. but what if they had, say, 99 and 88 and the board came AKQ?