Commerce Hand (Botched, I Think)

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't consider a push because it's a very big raise with the pot at ~500. would you push for that much of an overbet often?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, as I said, there's too much behind IMO to make that seem like a great plan. However, with somewhat smaller stacks, I do like making a checkraise overbet w/ a hand like that where I get significant fold equity and if called am unlikely to be a big dog and could easily be ahead. Obviously, KQs would be much nicer than 89s here.

[DOTTT]

My post was regarding his turn play, which he stated he disliked the most. I'm really split between check calling or raising this flop, I think you can make an argument for both. If you check call the flop I'm guessing you’re going to check fold the turn when you don't hit?

[turnipmonster]

yeah, I am find with checkfolding the turn if I miss, it's a very common line especially in pot limit, where implied odds are generally good enough to take 3 to 1 with that kind of draw on the flop. if the CO was deeper my main concern would be what to do if I hit.

--turnipmonster

[DOTTT]

[ QUOTE ]
After the flop, there's $2500 or so in the pot. And he has about $2800 left. His opponents clearly like their hands and how likely is it really that neither has a big made hand? Yes, he's often giving up if he doesn't push the turn. Nothing wrong IMO with giving up right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point, your only intention in raising the flop is to try and take it down there, not build up a pot when you hit your hand. When they both call, you have to wonder if firing another bullet is going to get anyone to lay down their hand, obviously the CO isn't going anywhere, so I guess it becomes sort off useless to fire again? Do you feel the bb would ever lay down top two, I guess you have to cout that he will when firing again, otherwise like you said check folding isn't that bad.

[DOTTT]

Ok cool. Do you agree with Diablo that a check fold on the turn is ok after you check raise the flop?

[turnipmonster]

he's exactly a 3-1 dog on the turn vs. the hands he was against, which was pretty much a best case scenario in terms of drawing. since a lot of times he will be drawing a lot worse than that, yes I think folding the turn getting less than 3 to 1 anyway is the best course of action. if BB is deeper I think he can consider a call, but I still think it is a fold.

[Ian]

I'm assuming 10/20? Pre-flop call is bad unless CO is really atrocious. Flop is an easy check-raise all-in. The only way this is not the right play is if you put a high probability that either one of the following situations exist: 1. BB has a bigger flush draw and would mistakenly call without correct pot odds; 2. CO has bigger flush draw and would make correct call (whatever the action of BB in front of him).

The much more interesting facet of this hand is the question of how much value there is before the flop in your being suited. I haven't read other responses yet, but one common misconception is that small and medium suited cards play better multi-way than heads-up. In limit, yes, of course. And with these stack sizes, being suited has some EV heads-up against CO. But if four or more see flop, your hand has little more EV suited than unsuited. So if you wouldn't call $80 here for a four or five way flop unsuited, you shouldn't call suited. And not JUST because of reverse implied odds. Implied odds are much better heads-up as well.

[amoeba]

why is a check raise all in on the flop bad when stacks are deeper?

wouldn't hero have more folding equity when stacks are deeper?

Or is it a bad idea because we believe the only callers he will get are those with sets or KQs ?

[Matt Flynn]

i agree if they all had $3600 and you can play them well enough you can call the $80, but that's way too big a percentage of the raiser's stack to call out of position.

on the flop you either want the pot small or you want all your chips in. either is ok. what's not ok is putting $700 in. since a $3,000+ check-raise is kinda ridiculous, i would lead out for $200 or so. if they fold, great. if they call, ok, we've got a small pot we can work with. if someone raises shove 'em all in.

matt

[Ulysses]

Matt,

Quit copying my answers and start thinking for yourself. Otherwise you'll never learn how to play NL well.