Commerce Hand (Botched, I Think)

[lapoker17]

OK - I lost a fair amount of money on this hand, and probably played it poorly, so be gentle (I know that comes naturally for most of you).

I'm in the SB ($3600 in front) with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

All fold to the CO ($1200 in front), who makes it $80. He's an OK player, but fairly straightforward.

Button folds, I call (first mistake?) and BB ($4000)calls. BB is just OK - Not too imaginative, not too scary.

Flop comes J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, BB bets $150, CO calls and I raise to $700 - Both call.

Turn comes 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I move all in and both call - We have a problem. We run it twice and BB wins both.

He had JTo and flopped top 2. CO had KQo and was open-ended, and getting pretty good odds I guess.

In hindsight, I have no idea why I played it this way - especially my all in on the turn, rather than keeping the pot smallish until I hit, but whatever. I totally botched it, I felt weakness and loved my draw too much - emotion ruined me.

Please let me know how any of you would've played it.

Thanks as always.

[DOTTT]

[ QUOTE ]
I call (first mistake?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Out of position this is a terrible hand, especially when your probably going to the flop heads up.


By the way I don't see how you could've played this differently. If you check the turn you’re basically giving up the hand.

[mntbikr15]

What were the blinds in this game? Didnt see it in the post.

I dont play such high stakes and am eager to hear others reply, but to me it is game dependant on the preflop call given your lousy post flop position.

[lapoker17]

Sorry - Blinds are 10/20.

[turnipmonster]

I don't really like the preflop call out of position. in position I think it's ok, but still marginal.

on the flop, you've got a huge draw, but you're way too deep to get it all in vs the BB aggressor, which is ideally what you want to do. the good news is you've got great implied odds to continue.

once the CO calls, I think it's important to adjust your outs accordingly. if he has AK or a flush draw then that ties up a lot of your outs right there, and once he calls I think you need to consider how often you will make your hand and still lose. even if you make your hand on the turn, with 2 callers on this board someone is going to have a redraw to beat you.

so basically, on the flop and with those stacks and that action I think you need to proceed with caution.

on the turn I think you screwed up. you raised big on the flop so now first to act you represent a very big hand, basically rooting for both your opponents to fold. problem is both your opponents must have pretty big hands to take that action on the flop, so I don't think you'll get folds very often.

interested to hear other people's thoughts. this hand is a good reason to try to avoid drawing out of position.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

By the way I don't see how you could've played this differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think checkraising the flop is a big mistake.

--turnipmonster

[lapoker17]

You're completely right about adjusting my outs after the flop. As it turns out, I was drawing about as good as I could possibly hope for and still missed, but if Co had AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I would be nearly dead to a 4 outer.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way I don't see how you could've played this differently. If you check the turn you’re basically giving up the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would check-call or push on the flop. I don't think he's going to take this down very often on that board w/ that checkraise after that action. There's too much behind to make pushing worth it, so check-calling (or leading) feels better.

After the flop, there's $2500 or so in the pot. And he has about $2800 left. His opponents clearly like their hands and how likely is it really that neither has a big made hand? Yes, he's often giving up if he doesn't push the turn. Nothing wrong IMO with giving up right there.

[mks]

turnipmonster,

I second almost everything you said. I don't like the preflop call at all out of position.

I also hate the turn bet. The preflop raiser has already put in $780 out of $1200 and is never going to fold for $420 more in a $2300 pot. So you have zero fold equity with that bet (putting aside the slight chance that BB folds and you free up some pair outs, which is generally unlikely). You need to check the turn. If the BB gives you a decent price you can call; if he goes all in you have to give it up. As turnipmonster said, you have to consider that some of your outs may be dead since the nut flush draw is a very reasonable hand for the PF raiser to have here.

[turnipmonster]

I didn't consider a push because it's a very big raise with the pot at ~500. would you push for that much of an overbet often? is that type of thing done a lot in this game, or in the 25/50?

other reason I didn't consider it is I almost always play pot limit, and this hand would play quite a bit differently in that game.

--turnipmonster