Raised PF, whiff flop. cut losses or keep firing? any middle ground?

[SofaCoach]

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I like your play ESPECIALLY since it gets heads up...

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Right, I wouldn't have played it this way if it wasn't HU (and the PF raise was an attempt to get it that way immediately).

[SofaCoach]

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In 2/4 and ESPECIALLY 3/6, the blind is checkraise bluffing A LOT...How do you deal with these situations?

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First, I've had very good results at 2/4 (3-4bb/100) but barely above break-even at my attempts at 3/6 because of the aggressive play and bluffing that goes on there.

And yes, I see some of that at 2/4. Especially if it's been raised PF and you get a paired board or scare card on the turn you get the old check-raise and often it is a bluff. How I play it depends, but more and more often I've been calling them down. Last night I called down with Ace high 3 times against check raisers and won two of them against bluffs. (in all 3 cases I had raised PF with AK - AJ)

[StellarWind]

This deal is a good object lesson in why it is not sufficient to have the best hand. This would be an easy preflop raise from the button because your good position can often be translated into free cards or a free showdown. This reduced cost to play allows you to stay in a lot of difficult hands. It also helps force your opponents out when no one hits the flop.

From SB you are the one who is vulnerable to either being pushed out or making a lot of -EV bets/calls in an attempt to win.

Someone said that by raising preflop you put the burden on your opponents to hit the flop. That is incorrect in this situation. Merely completing and then betting the flop puts even more pressure on your opponents. Not raising means they have no idea what you have and you can represent whatever appeared on the flop. Keeping the pot small makes it very costly for them to play on without a solid hand.

Anyway, the big money is not in borderline efforts to steal little pots. Suppose you flop an ace. The last thing you want is for them to fold in a tiny pot. Being called down by a smaller pair is hugely profitable even if you lose sometimes. They are much more likely to make this mistake if you called preflop. The PFR warns them that the least you are likely to have is a big second pair like JJ. You are unlikely to have missed entirely with an ace on board.

I think the preflop raise is borderline but OK because you do have a pretty good hand and getting BB out would help a lot. But it is not as good as some people seem to think.

Flop bet is automatic and I would usually bet the turn after one opponent folds.

The river is an easy checkfold against most opponents. Betting cannot be right becuase you have little chance to fold a better hand or be called by a worse one. No pair will fold while they put you on AK unimproved. No hand without an ace is likely to call. So you check. Now let's examine different opponent types:

Loose/Passive: You could easily be ahead. But you will generally get a free showdown when you are ahead and often when you aren't. Most of the time they bet it's because they have quite a good hand. You won't be good nearly often enough to justify calling.

Tight/Passive: Usually you are behind. In fact checkfolding the turn would have had merit. Once in a while a flush draw bluffs you off the best hand. That's life, it's not cost-effective to prevent it.

Tight/Aggressive: Has some sort of real hand and would probably not be just calling with a flush draw.

Loose/Aggressive and some abnormal Loose/Passives: This is the difficult case. He could be calling with nothing and may very easily bluff when you check. In this case you should call some of the time. You have a pretty good bluff-catcher and the river was harmless, so this would be a good time to try.

[TBone]

Flop and turn bet are good--especially turn bet heads up. Many times people bet out on the flop and then check the turn when it's heads up and they actually bluffed the flop. I agree with those who say don't rasise preflop due to position. Makes the hand much more difficult to play.

River, you have to check and fold to a bet. Betting here is little value because if you're called you lose. If he's called you up to this point he's likely on a draw or a pair. HEPFAP has a great section on river play. I suggest you read it. Haven't had a chance to read SSHE yet, but will as work permits. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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[SteveY]

Id play it like you would, and I usually check-fold the river unless the board is very draw heavy.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

dude you post good.

what to do on this river is very player dependent, but my gut reaction is to usually check with the intention of folding to a bet.

the looser and trickier/aggressive the guy is the more i'm inclined to see a showdown, which might mean check/calling hoping to induce a bluff.

the more passive the guy is and he bets, he has a piece and you should let go.


the most important thing though is to realize what does a river bet accomplish? stellerwind hit it on the nose here. any pair is almost surely going to call you down after calling the turn. busted flush/straight draws will not call. no pair hands will not call either.

if you do bet this river and you do win, 90+% of the time is due to folding out your opponent's hand. i'd venture to say 90% of the times he does fold because he had nothing anyways while only 10% of the time you actually got him to fold a better hand. the rest of the time you bet and win an actual showdown is a freak occurance where you'll get called down by A high with a weaker kicker or K high or your opponent misclicks and calls with his busted draw.

[SteveY]

I have a general question.

Say there is one loose limper and then it's to you in the SB. How good would your kicker need to be to raise an Axo, or an Axs in this situation? Say BB defending is 50/50.

Also, would you ever fold an Axo in this position, or is it either raise/limp?

[helpmeout]

This is a good hand to post and the replys have been excellent.

I guess this is why you dont value raise from SB or BB too often. I'd still raise this but it is a good lesson for other hands.

Having good position is worth that 1 bet on the end when you cant get them to fold. Its even better when they are slowplaying and plan to checkraise you and you check the river with your A high bluff.

[StellarWind]

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Say there is one loose limper and then it's to you in the SB. How good would your kicker need to be to raise an Axo, or an Axs in this situation? Say BB defending is 50/50.

Also, would you ever fold an Axo in this position, or is it either raise/limp?

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ATo/A9s are marginal raises. This is very player-dependent. But a 50-50 BB and a limper who would play any ace make raising very tempting.

Sometimes I would fold a hand like A4o. Again it is player dependent. But I like to complete a lot of marginal offsuit hands with one limper that I would fold with more limpers. It's worth money to have a seat in a 3-handed pot because of the bluff opportunities.