Pocket Ts versus a 2+2er (2/4) - Page 2

BolliTrader · #11 08-18-2004, 08:42 PM

Re: Pocket Ts versus a 2+2er (2/4)

Red thanks for the game and the post...
First I really (honestly) do appreciate being critised here. It makes me a better player (although I think all the flaming makes baby jesus cry a little). Now to attempt to defend my play.

Pre flop...
This table had been a little tight, but seemed to be loosening up some. I felt like this had to the potential to be a big pot. I hate cold calling (40 times in over 10000 hands since the purchase of PT), but there were some factors that lead to my decision to do it in this scenerio.
1. My cards. I had Pocket Jacks. I was pretty sure that I had better than a 50 - 50 chance of being better than Red_Rain. My thought on his standard of raising from this early position would be about the same as mine (AA - TT and AK, AQ, AJs, ATs, maybe KQs ~ Sthief, what else should i be raising early?).
2. I felt I would knock out all the others players if I re-raised (as it turned out it didn't matter). I didn't want to play head up against a 2+2er when there are others money to be made by all. Onto the flop...

It's sport now. No others in the hand. I looked at the K and thought to myself "self, I wonder if he has a king or two, so I raised". If he 3 bets I'm not sure if I call him down or not. Just when my head was about to explode from this thought he just called.

Turn I felt I had the best hand since he had only called.

River I felt he would only call if had me beat.

That's what I thinking at the time right or wrong...

Thanks again everyone.

Derek aka BlindChippy

Also ~ Sthief~ I raise 8.15% is that still to little raising?

MoreWineII · #12 08-18-2004, 08:47 PM

I'm afraid I don't understand your preflop reasoning. Can you explain why you didn't want other players to fold a bit more clearly?

I *love* it when players fold PF when I have JJ.

BolliTrader · #13 08-18-2004, 09:30 PM

Situationally, I felt like a few of the other players would call 2 cold with hands that were worse than JJ. I didn't think some of the same players would call 3 cold w/ worse than JJ. Either way, better than JJ wasn't going away. I also felt I could ouplay most of the other players after the flop.

sthief09 · #14 08-18-2004, 09:41 PM

not 3-betting JJ here is bad. I think cold-calling with JJ is better than cold-calling with KQs though. I like how you played it postflop . A river bet here is very thin, considering I'd be putting him on QQ, JJ, or TT. it's about even odds of you winning or losing, and there's a small chance he's trying to check-raise KK or for some reason called down with AJ or AQ. I assumed you had KQs and a lot of my comments and flaming refer to the fact that I "knew" you had KQs.

the reason I said something about preflop raising is because 17 and 7 (what he had on you) seems either too loose or too passive. a rockish TAG will be around 12/8, and a more active, aggressive TAG will be around 18/11 (personally I'm 20/12 which is on the LAG side), so it appeared that you just limped with some extra hands. I think most of the hands in addition to the basic 12/8 should be raised with. if your PFR is 8 and change, that's probably good if your VP$IP is in the 16-18 range. in the future, you can add some more hands to raise with, but you're still probably playing well preflop.

but disregard most or all of what I wrote in my first post. I really didn't think you'd have JJ. I think it's literally the only hand that you could've played well (in my opinion) given your line of play postflop.

but in the future pop it preflop.

nice hand

34TheTruth34 · #15 08-18-2004, 10:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I *love* it when players fold PF when I have JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. There is nothing more frustrating than opponents who put a lot of money into the pot preflop when I have the best hand.

sthief09 · #16 08-19-2004, 12:09 AM

I'd take one opponent in a 7 SB pot over 4 opponents in an 11 SB pot any day.

if I HAD to call and I got to choose between 0 callers or 4, I'd choose 4. but if I had to choose between 2 people for a 3-bet, or 5 people for 2 bets, I'd take the 3-bet.

MoreWineII · #17 08-19-2004, 12:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I *love* it when players fold PF when I have JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. There is nothing more frustrating than opponents who put a lot of money into the pot preflop when I have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd take one opponent in a 7 SB pot over 4 opponents in an 11 SB pot any day.

if I HAD to call and I got to choose between 0 callers or 4, I'd choose 4. but if I had to choose between 2 people for a 3-bet, or 5 people for 2 bets, I'd take the 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

sthief09 · #18 08-19-2004, 01:01 AM

ok, now I'm confused

Richard Berg · #19 08-19-2004, 01:19 AM

Money good, opponents bad (until you get enough implied odds for set value).

Richard Berg · #20 08-19-2004, 01:29 AM

I think checking through the river with JJ is ok. The original Hero is looking like QQ-88, AK-AQ, AKs-A9s (hearts + overcard + fear of raise make check-calling the turn with these plausible), KJs (offsuit kings would have to have enough high card value that they'd 3-bet the flop). Against someone who knows his opponent has had "bet the river for value" beaten into his head, you have to consider a checkraise very possible given the action and board.

3-bet preflop, though.