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#41
07-07-2005, 01:07 PM
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Re: \"Fold, keep your image tight so you can steal more later\"
[ QUOTE ]
e) image is worth a lot less than people think (e) is really the crux of the other 4 points. citanul [/ QUOTE ] As a general rule, this is correct. In low limit games, this is especially true in the early levels. There's not much you can do here to get noticed except act like a maniac or win a huge pot. Even the latter will be soon forgotten if you do nothing else of note. I think that the exceptions start kicking in when the table gets down to about 5 players. If you chart your play in 2 dimensions, where you are on the tight-loose spectrum will not be noticed by most players. On the passive-aggressive line, passive play will generally not be noticed. The exception is when you appear to let someone steal your blind 2-3 times in 4-5 hands. This will brand you as someone who can be bullied. What will get you noticed and build an image is playing more aggressively than the table norm once down to about 5 players. Every table has its own general level of aggressiveness. Playing above that level will be noticed. Also, at all but the most aggressive tables, most players assume certain "rights", or stake out turf, if you will. If I am in the BB in a 5-handed game and everyone else folds or limps preflop and then the SB raises, the SB has violated my "rights" as the BB to see the flop for free. He gets noticed. He gets an image, particularly if he does it more than once. If I put in a "normal" raise preflop, I expect everyone to fold or call, and to check to the raiser on the flop. If you come back over the top of me, you are on my turf, and I resent it. In short, tight or loose or passive play will not be noticed enough by most opponents in a low level game to matter, will not be noticed enough to give you an image that will change the way others play. "Normal" aggressive play will not be noticed, especially at the early levels. "Overly" aggressive play, especially when the table starts to get short, will be noticed, and will build you an image. Whether or not it will affect the play of opponents depends on their playing skills and experience. Even shorter, you are not going to have an image in the eyes of most low level players unless and until you actively and aggressively build one. In the words of the OP subject, the only thing that seriously affects your ability to steal late is when you start doing a lot of stealing late. 
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#42
07-07-2005, 01:09 PM
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Re: \"Fold, keep your image tight so you can steal more later\"
[ QUOTE ]
right before i took my break i and adanthar and a couple others were heavilly pushing that people who have post flop skills should be playing more hands, particularly against bad opponents, and in good situations. also that people who lack post flop skills should work on them so they can do the same. the games are beatable using an incredibly tight strategy, but they are possibly *more* beatable if you can add more hands to your mix. [/ QUOTE ] I agree. I think many players get confused that tight early is optimal when I don't think that's the case at all. Tight early is the easiest strategy to implement without sacrificing so much equity as to restrict your profitability too much. I agree that's how players should start off and maybe it might allow you to multitable more. But it's clearly not optimal. You should be maximimizing your average equity at every stage of the tournament. If you are averaging more equity than me after level 1, its clear that you're going to have a higher winner percentage at every subsequent level. And this applies to all levels. The exception to this rule is what the original topic of the thread is: giving up these oppurtunities earlier for more profitable ones later. In practice, I agree these moves are almost always just giving up overall equity. And so eastbay doesn't go bananas: equity = ICM equity here.
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#43
07-07-2005, 01:59 PM
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Re: \"Fold, keep your image tight so you can steal more later\"
e) image is worth a lot less than people think
Image is important to my game especially when it comes down to the bubble. Stealing with no resistance is VERY important late in a sng. T.J. Coutier likes to show his good hands when someone folds to him. Why? He knows that if his raises never get called then he will win the tournament with out resistance. If im on the bubble facing elimination, I will take a blind steal over a showdown every time late in a sng unless I hold AA. a) in general, your opponents don't pay that much attention This is true in the early stages, however I disagree with this statement in the late stages. The type of player I fear most in the late rounds of a sng is the tight carefull player. I never fear a hyper aggressive maniac with a big stack I just wait for the right situation to challenge him. You would have to be retarted not to be able to spot a significantly tight or loose player after the 4th round. There are some retarted players on party but not as many at the 200 level where I play.
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#45
07-07-2005, 02:07 PM
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Re: \"Fold, keep your image tight so you can steal more later\"
it appears that people are misconstruing my intended meaning:
image is a lot less important than you think: yes, it would be GREAT if it were possible to just make them think whatever you want them to, but it's not. going out of your way and passing up good spots in order to possibly change the way one or two opponents might think about you, if they are thinking, is absurd. that's sort of the rub i was looking for. in the late stages of course you are looking to avoid some players less than others. you say, for instance, that you are looking to be scared of the patient plodding players who are suddenly aggressive. yeah, so is everyone else. but, to make them think of you as tight and patient, for real, at the bubble time, chances are pretty good that you're actually going to have played tight and patiently 4 and 5 handed for a while. it is unlikely that they are going to take their thoughts of you (if they existed) from 10 handed to 4 handed. meanwhile, being overly patient is massively unprofitable 4 and 5 handed. the overall point is that passing up ONE spot in the early mid parts of the tournament in order to get yourself a little extra folding equity is just patently ridiculous, because when it comes down to the bubble time, you're oging to be negating any effects of "ooh, he's tight" they have in their minds very quickly, since you'll be correctly pushing often. citanul [ QUOTE ] e) image is worth a lot less than people think Image is important to my game especially when it comes down to the bubble. Stealing with no resistance is VERY important late in a sng. T.J. Coutier likes to show his good hands when someone folds to him. Why? He knows that if his raises never get called then he will win the tournament with out resistance. If im on the bubble facing elimination, I will take a blind steal over a showdown every time late in a sng unless I hold AA. a) in general, your opponents don't pay that much attention This is true in the early stages, however I disagree with this statement in the late stages. The type of player I fear most in the late rounds of a sng is the tight carefull player. I never fear a hyper aggressive maniac with a big stack I just wait for the right situation to challenge him. You would have to be retarted not to be able to spot a significantly tight or loose player after the 4th round. There are some retarted players on party but not as many at the 200 level where I play. [/ QUOTE ]
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#47
07-07-2005, 02:54 PM
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Re: \"Fold, keep your image tight so you can steal more later\"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] posts like this make me wish i had a roll for the $215s [/ QUOTE ] why? citanul [/ QUOTE ] mostly because he is a) getting advice from the cloutier book -- enh, and b) talks about how he doesnt fear a hyper aggressive player late in an SNG, but rather fears a tight player. I think this is completely backwards. Tight players, late in tournaments, are one of the main reasons I make money in SNGs.
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#48
07-07-2005, 02:56 PM
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Re: \"Fold, keep your image tight so you can steal more later\"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] posts like this make me wish i had a roll for the $215s [/ QUOTE ] why? citanul [/ QUOTE ] mostly because he is a) getting advice from the cloutier book -- enh, and b) talks about how he doesnt fear a hyper aggressive player late in an SNG, but rather fears a tight player. I think this is completely backwards. Tight players, late in tournaments, are one of the main reasons I make money in SNGs. [/ QUOTE ] does that poster play the 200s or something? otherwise i'm missing the connection. the tight players are the ones you fear WHEN THEY COME TO LIFE is the statment i think he was making, i hope. citanul
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#49
07-07-2005, 02:57 PM
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Re: \"Fold, keep your image tight so you can steal more later\"
[ QUOTE ]
it appears that people are misconstruing my intended meaning: image is a lot less important than you think the overall point is that passing up ONE spot in the early mid parts of the tournament in order to get yourself a little extra folding equity is just patently ridiculous [/ QUOTE ] Completely, 100% agree. ps. Do people really fold AJ in the CO when folded to? I thought I was tight, but I'd never do that at any stage of a SnG.
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#50
07-07-2005, 03:00 PM
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Re: \"Fold, keep your image tight so you can steal more later\"
[ QUOTE ]
There are some retarted players on party but not as many at the 200 level where I play. [/ QUOTE ] And I guess I just interpreted it differently (with respect to the tight player comment). I was full of it anyway. I'm fairly sure the Raptors of the world would still have their way with me at this point. Plus I cash out about once every two weeks, so I don't anticipate my roll getting there anytime soon.
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