"Fold, keep your image tight so you can steal more later"

[citanul]

I think that we need an official sounding off thread on this subject. I see this advice posted often. I believe it to be horrible. I think that others should believe it to be horrible. Moreover, I believe that people who throw this advice around do so at spots where it's totally silly to consider the universe in such a way.

I have a lot to say on this subject, but I wanted to start by opening up the floor to anyone who wants to say anything about this.

A few points to start:

a) in general, your opponents don't pay that much attention
b) in general, even if they know that you're entirely nuts, they're not correct, by icm, to call you in the late game anyway.
c) goes with (b) no matter how nutty they think you are, there are limits to how far down their calling ranges go (different from (b) in that (b) states that there are limits as to how far it *should* go down, not how far it does go down)
d) passing up +EV spots is bad.
e) image is worth a lot less than people think

(e) is really the crux of the other 4 points.

citanul

[lastchance]

It's less about image and more about not pissing your opponents and making them think that you're bullying them. Obviously, this advice sucks at the higher levels, but at the $11's, it's really nice to try to keep your opponent's calling ranges sane.

[octaveshift]

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It's less about image and more about not pissing your opponents and making them think that you're bullying them.

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Word. Up.

[adanthar]

In the set of 4 I'm playing, I've pushed 700 on the button with 75/150 blinds and gotten called by A2o in the SB, and pushed 600 on the button with 50/100 blinds and gotten called by K3s in the SB. Different people, of course.

So yeah, after this plus July 4'th, FE is quickly vanishing.

[runner4life7]

AMEN. Just wanted to thank you because I've always thought that image was overrated and its nice to hear it from a respected poster.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
In the set of 4 I'm playing, I've pushed 700 on the button with 75/150 blinds and gotten called by A2o in the SB, and pushed 600 on the button with 50/100 blinds and gotten called by K3s in the SB. Different people, of course.

So yeah, after this plus July 4'th, FE is quickly vanishing.

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Isn't it odd when the 100s and 200s are getting to be like the old school 10s, where it was all about just getting all in with the best hand and waiting for the long run to kick in?

citanul

[Freudian]

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b) in general, even if they know that you're entirely nuts, they're not correct, by icm, to call you in the late game anyway.

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Or more likely you are wrong, by icm, to push into them (assuming they are poor players) in the late game because you misjudge their calling range and even more importantly forget that bad players sometimes just had enough of you pushing and will call with Q9.

I think related to this subject is showing what hands you have. I sometimes show donks that is sitting to my immediate left (that sees 50% of flops) AK two times in a row just because I don't want them to call next time I push. Of course any thinking player at the table know I am only showing my good hands. I don't care. They already know what I am doing anyway. I only care about the donk thinking I am lucky and be more likely to fold to my next push.

The success of such a strategy is of course debatable. Even poor players have a brain and are able to figure out obvious patterns. But I think as long as I play the 22s it doesn't hurt me at least, and possibly helping me.

[citanul]

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AMEN. Just wanted to thank you because I've always thought that image was overrated and its nice to hear it from a respected poster.

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Someone just informed me that Eastbay made a very similar post while I was away, and it got no notice. =( sad times when Eastbay posts to no avail.

I'm really serious about this one. I think that this topic is very important, and that yes, it's even important at the 11s and such. The people who are prone to make the silly adjustments to their calling ranges are just about as likely to do it just the first time you push as they are the 6th time you push. The ones who start to call with JTs because "I knew you had crap," well, you weren't going to dissuade them by folding ONE EXTRA TIME. I argue that it is rare that the chips you get in additional theoretical folding equity by improving your image by one fold is very rarely worth giving up one reasonably +cEV spot earlier in a tournament.

citanul

[citanul]

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b) in general, even if they know that you're entirely nuts, they're not correct, by icm, to call you in the late game anyway.

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Or more likely you are wrong, by icm, to push into them (assuming they are poor players) in the late game because you misjudge their calling range and even more importantly forget that bad players sometimes just had enough of you pushing and will call with Q9.

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yeah, that too.

citanul

part of my point, as i think i allude to in another post, is that these bad players who get sick that fast of you pushing get fast pretty fast anyway, and one push isn't going to be the difference maker. so throwing away a push that is significantly +cEV just isn't good.

your post goes to the larger issue of knowing what type of idiot your idiot opponents being important to results in every way. that is a very very good point.

[Voltron87]

Hi, my name is Voltron and I've been SNG free for (I dunno, a while).

6 max NL and live NL games are so sweet.