My 2+2 sng suggestion... Leaderboard!

[AleoMagus]

Well I know I haven't been playing lately but that hasn't stopped me from following all the results (and don't think I'm not gonna be back soon). Anyways, I have been thinking about an idea for a while now and I thought I'd bring it up.

Leaderboard!

I'd be really interested in tracking results of these things over a longer time frame. Perhaps this will seem like a bad idea to some. Maybe overly-competitive?
We all know a competitive mentality has no place in a poker tournament right? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

The only real reason (that I see) why it might not be a good idea is that it might discourage some from playing. Players who don't think they are likely to do good might not enjoy seeing themselves near the bottom of the standings all the time.

So, who thinks it's a good idea?
If it is a good idea, how should it be done?

I think it would be good to separate the two time's so that players who play in both don't get too big an advantage. I also think that it would be best to just track the last ten or twenty at a time (plus maybe a long term standings in addition to the short term)

I would be happy to put these results together each week if you guys did want to try it. What should the points distribution be? How many points for each place? Points for how many places?

Should it be run in specified 10 or twenty week blocks, or should it just be the last ten or twenty at a time. The advantage of a specified block would be that you could name a ten or twenty week champ.

Any thoughts?
Brad S

[AleoMagus]

[Al_Capone_Junior]

OK.

I chose whatever. I chose this solely because of my personal attitude on these SNGs. While I do enjoy them, I don't always play in them. And while I have done reasonably well, with several in the money finishes, I probably wouldn't play enough to be the likely leader.

It's kind of like the KOTZ. I am currently third in standings, but am not certain at all I will play in them every time I have the chance, therefore my standings may very well drop. It's a whimsical thing for me. So whatever. I might play thursday in the limit hold'em event, but I might not. I did win the pot limit event, that might just be enough for me. Sure beating youz mugs is fun, but beating up on the fish is more profitable.

I don't think you have a bad idea here tho, just that I am kinda wishy washy on it.

al

[Stoneii]

I only play Tuesday's games. So far it's

13,5,8,8,8,4,9

Massive profit as you can see /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Sheriff Fatman]

Personally I'm indifferent as to whether this is done or not. However, I believe the sentiment in previous discussions are that they didn't want the SnG's to become another 'official' event as they are primarily for learning/discussion (hence the low buy-in).

Perhaps a ranking system can be devised for distribution by PM or Email on an opt-in basis. That way, it doesn't become 'official' but allows those who are interested to track their progress.

Sheriff

[DrPhysic]

AleoMagus

This is not the first time the idea of keeping score in the SNG games has been brought up. The earliest thread I know of on the subject is “Results from today’s SNG” dated 1/27/04.
For further info, search posts on the subject by thomastem in Jan or Feb.

Here are two posts, one by Tim Perkin and one by myself on that subject:
__________________________________________________ _________________

The idea is to keep these as just a bit of fun. Therefore I think that we should not keep score. However I will obviously post the final standings in each game report.

Plus it is actually quite a lot of work to keep track of all the players, all their aliases, and all their results - different people play each week and if there are more than 18 people then we will (and in the US game they already do) run more than one table.

If somebody is so willing they are more than welcome to put all the results in a spreadsheet or something. I have no problem with you posting it here or putting it on a website or something.

We just didn't really want to turn this into another KotZ where things are very competitive. So basically, play in KotZ if you want super competitive games with scoreboards and leagues etc., and play in these when you just want a casual game which will hopefully be instructive and competitive at the same time.

These are just my thoughts, DrPhysic (who runs the later game) I think thinks the same, but he may correct me....

Tim
__________________________________________________ ____________

Tim is right, I do agree with him. For several reasons:
1. In the responses when we first started the SNG series and since, most players seem to feel that they wanted a friendly social game. The general feeling received from most was "KotZ is for competition".
2. While I have received requests that we keep score, they have come from 2 people that I remember specifically (possibly three). I have 68 people on the mailing list.
3. There may be yet another competitive event available with the advent of KotZ vs SS vs Looney Touns, and with Mike Haven's expressed interest in starting a league.
4. I don't have the time to keep score. However, if the feeling of the group is that you wish to keep score, I e-mailed eMarkM a few days ago, and he was kind enough to share the KotZ scoring system. It tracks position of all entrants, not just the winners. Name difference between Stars and 2+2 would become a problem, as some do not wish to be identified, which of course we respect.

For the time being, until the group indicates differently, I think we should continue with weekly bragging rights, double if you win the afternoon and evening games, triple bragging rights if you win all three.

Doc
__________________________________________________ ____________


Now, it should be understood that Tim and I certainly do not own the SNG series. We will do pretty much what the group wants. I feel the above does reflect the expressed sentiments of the group at the time the SNG series was started.

There are now 88 members on the mailing list. Some do not want playing names known on 2+2 or vice versa and we respect that. Trying to keep new people, and non 2+2 people sorted out and 2+2 names identified in order to keep score would be nearly impossible if it were desirable, of which I for one am not at all convinced. I remain one of the "keep it a fun social event" group.

Doc

[William]

Hi Doc,

Some do not want playing names known on 2+2 or vice versa and we respect that

"keep it a fun social event" group

I think this 2 statements are contradictory and my opinion is that if somebody doesn't want to reveal his identity at 2+2, then he should keep away from the 2+2 SNGs. We are there mostly to socialise (at least that is my impression) and I personally hate those people who want to know everything about you without revealing anything about themselves.

Take care,
William

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I agree with your sentiments here. Have some balls and show your face already. Otherwise you just get listed as "random entrant" anyway.

al

[t_perkin]

Aleo,

if you can come up with a scoring system which takes into account:

Different people playing in different events
Different people playing different numbers of events
Some sort of recognition that the late/early games may have different quality of players in
Some sort of adjustment for the fact that many of the early games (dunno about the late ones?) contain up to 35% non 2+2ers

And those are just problems off the top of my head, there are no doubt more.

If you can come up with a system - feel free to run it.

I am sure you can come up with something, and I expect that the KotZ system would make a reasonable basis for it.

Personally I can't be bothered. I can't even be bothered to write a full game report each week any more. It is impossible to play at the same time, and writing one from hand histories afterwards takes a f*ing long time.

They are fun just the way they are at the moment, personally I have no desire to change them at all.

Tim

[AleoMagus]

hmmmmn

Poll seems (mostly) positive, but not in any overwhelming way. Clearly a lot of apathy out there also.

Truth be told, I had no idea that KOTZ was that competetive. Imagine my surprise when I did a google search on leaderboard points calculation methods to discover the KOTZ webpage. Leaderboard points, statistics, fancy charts, tons of data... everything I want is all there. And here I had pretty much ignored the KOTZ tournaments.

Barring an unlikely flooding of positive votes in the next while, I think I'll forget about this for now and finally get involved with KOTZ instead.

Thanks,
Brad S

[DrPhysic]

Whoah Guys! Let me clarify please:

As I am sort of the volunteer in charge, I feel (as I believe does Tim) that we need to respect the wishes of anyone who wants to remain in hiding. I would not reveal anyone's playing name without their specific permission.

Out of 87 people on the SNG list, there are only 17 that I have not been given the playing names for, and I think I know almost all of them. They are oversights, or people who simply have not told me their playing names. As an example: AleoMagus is one of them! There is none that I know of that plays with us that is in hiding.

Since it reveals nothing and might get my list updated here are the 2+2 names of the ones for whom I do not have playing names:
7thson
alekhine8
AleoMagus
Citanul
ClemsonAce
hamshow90
Husker'66
Isolanni
Kerssens
Kurtcobain
Microboy
Muck Muck
Outsidefun
SKOAL
Slogger
Triplec
Xlgjoe

Obviously, none of the above are obligated to give us playing names if they don’t wish to. The are then just one more non 2+2er that got caught in our game.

Now, to address the scoring situation: I would not be in favor of a year long series with points, etc such as KotZ.

How about instead, if someone wishes to spend the time doing it, a 4 week running total?
Use a points system that assigns one point to 18th place, more for each place above, scaled in somewhat the same way the prizes are allocated for a regular tourney? Or, how about a running total of prize dollars won? This would not give credit for participation if you don’t win, thus I like the other suggestion better. This would probably need somebody who is real good with a database or spreadsheet to assign points to the most recent winners, drop out the scores from more than 4 weeks ago, and re-total. It also leaves open the question of what to do with names that we do not recognize as 2+2.

It could be immediately updated as the results from the 12 SNG’s in the past 4 weeks are all posted.

If we did it in that manner, we would have a leaderboard of who has done well in the last month, which I think would not be inconsistent with the friendly competition approach to the SNG games. And anybody who joins could be high on the leaderboard by this time next month.

As Tim indicated, neither of us has the time, but if someone wants to follow this up, I see no problem with it.

Opinions?????????????????????
AleoMagus???????????????????

Doc

[XlgJoe]

To help you update your list my 2+2 name and playing name are the same.

As for a scoring system why not just keep track of avg finish position. They are all the same tournies(18 payer SNG). Much different from the KOTZ which can have differing number of players, type of game, and entry fee.

[AleoMagus]

I am shub314. Sorry, I am an egomaniac and thought that everyone knew that by now.

As for the other stuff - it's all good ideas. I think points all the way to 18th place is good for a social points standings because it rewards players just for coming out. I also do not think that competition and a social atmosphere are mutually exclusive.

I don't think it would be too hard to do, and I'd have the time if players are interested. As for non 2+2ers, I say just include them and assume they are all 2+2. Anonymity is already guaranteed by the internet for those who want it (Unless your nick is your actual full name, and those people obviously don't care about anonymity anyways)

I still think 4 weeks is too short a time to compile points standings for. I think this because I wouldn't want to combine results from the two time zones and this would only give 4 tourneys. Ten weeks is still not a long time frame for new players to catch up quickly and then we'd have two leaderboards (north american time and european time) that way players would only have to play in one to be competitive.
Who knows? I had stated in my other response that I might just give this idea up, but maybe a test period could be worth trying. Now that I think of it, there is another problem to consider and that is second tables that start. I suppose I could just say 'too bad' but that seems unfair when obviously there will always be a few non 2+2ers at the main table while 2+2 players might have another game worth keeping track of going. Those extra games could be kept track of also, but then you are back to the problem of unfair advantage to those players who get into both, etc...

Still, A decision has to be made and seeing as how I am the one who brought this up, I guess I should make up my mind. If my little poll was all 'yes' and 'whatever', I'd just do it without a care but even one 'No' gives me pause.

...

(about a half hour of thinking, deliberation and web research on points calculation occurs here)

...

I just think that anyone who wanted to put together past results into some kind of list can do it anyways so how does it really change what we've already got going? I would just be putting that list together in my own particular way (currently undecided) and posting it. Is that act of posting what we could all easily come up with ourselves (perhaps some already do) really so bad? Perhaps all that makes it bad is just that nobody cares.

My personal decision is no. Not yet anyways. Don't get me wrong, I am gonna do this in order to see how hard it is and to be sure that it can be done in a fair way. Perhaps if it works I will keep the info to myself and perhaps I will bring it up again to see if others are interested.

Any other thoughts
No reason why mine should be the final word

Regards,
Brad S

[Simon Diamond]

Truth be told, I had no idea that KOTZ was that competetive. Imagine my surprise when I did a google search on leaderboard points calculation methods to discover the KOTZ webpage. Leaderboard points, statistics, fancy charts, tons of data... everything I want is all there. And here I had pretty much ignored the KOTZ tournaments.

I'm glad somebody likes it, it takes ages to compile all that guff!

My two penneth on some of the issues raised here. First, if you do plan to introduce rankings, how about a set of European Rankings (for Tuesdays games) and American Rankings (for Wed/Thurs games). I picked the names based on the timing of the events, but I would expect players of all nationalities to be eligible for both.

Second, the issue of 2+2 names and anonymity. A simple compromise would be to use Poker Stars names in the rankings. People can announce their names if they want to and remain anonymous if not.

I am with Sir William regarding anonymity anyway. I don't think people should participate if they are that fussed about their identity. Thats the policy I have adopted with King of the Zoo in the past and expect that to continue, of course you SNG guys are entitled to run your own policy and good luck to you.

I make the same offer I have made to the HULA organisers, if you want results/rankings/stats etc on a web site let me know and I will churn one out for you.

Simon

[William]

how about a set of European Rankings (for Tuesdays games) and American Rankings (for Wed/Thurs games)

Simon, you just opened my eyes! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

How about a match EUROPE vs USA ?

Man, we will crush the americans in a way the'll be embarassed for weeks /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

HE HE /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Simon Diamond]

How about a match EUROPE vs USA ?

Sounds like a job for Mike Haven. I will have a word with him.

Simon

[isolanni]

Leaderboard sounds great.
I am 'Isolanni' at Stars,Party,2+2,etc

[Stoneii]

luv it

[Stagemusic]

Oh Good Lord...here we go. This could be fun. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I would definitely be up for something like this. The only problem would be the whining about "American Bullies" we Americans would have to listen to after whipping your azz.... AGAIN

[William]

The only problem would be the whining about "American Bullies" we Americans would have to listen to after WHIPPING your azz.... AGAIN

Stage, I can see you made a typo...you wrote WHIPPING while you meant KISSING /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Must be the fear of what is coming your way at the other post /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Simon Diamond]

What format would you suggest for such a challenge Sir William? Heads up matches or a normal tournament such as the ones Mike Haven has organised in the past?

Simon

[Sheriff Fatman]

This is an idea I'd already been thinking about as a tournament format which we don't have in place yet. I was planning to post something to guage interest but was beaten to it on the day by the announcement of HULA, which proved very popular, so had decided to wait until that had died down a little.

One site which recently offered to set up a 2+2 event is Choice. I PM'd them at the time to say that I'd be willing to try and help get something going (as ultimately I'd like to see this site get some more players) and this was the format I suggested to them. To me, it would be a good opportunity for them to showcase themselves, whilst offering another competition which did not 'compete' with any 2+2 format I'm yet aware of.

I'd be happy to continue this dialogue if there is an appetite for an event of this type (I had no doubt that there would be) and to try and get this off the ground. I was planning to PM Mike Haven for his thoughts/suggestions on this before going public in any event, but hadn't yet got round to doing this.

How would people feel about the possibility of using Choice as the venue for this? So far, they've been responsive to player suggestions (e.g they've already changed the chip displays on the tables following complaints that they were hard to fathom) but are struggling from a lack of traffic whenever I log in. As they've already indicated a willingness to work with 2+2 this might be a way to build a regular dialogue with yet another site, which will hopefully benefit everyone.

If anyone has any feedback on this idea I'd be grateful to hear it.

Sheriff

PS - By the way, I'm not an affiliate. I don't have any links with Choice other than being a Charter Member there (which gives me a rake kickback on my own play if I play enough hours there). I'm therefore keen for them to get a few more players at the tables so that I can take advantage of this, but this is the only 'benefit' I'd get. I did point out that attracting more 2+2 players was not exactly beneficial to my chances of making money at Choice but I think that positive publicity from an event of this type might help build the site's reputation in general.

[William]

I think HU would be difficult to organize. A normal tournament would also be nice because it will allow players to interact at the chat window. As an example, I wouldn't mind laughing a little when Stage gets busted /images/graemlins/grin.gif

If it could be arranged at stars an in NL or PL format, that would be the best.

Thanks Simon for spending (again) time to make this possible. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Take care,
William

[Stagemusic]

[ QUOTE ]
Stage, I can see you made a typo...you wrote WHIPPING while you meant KISSING

[/ QUOTE ]

Close William...actually I MIGHT have been thinking about KICKING Must have been a bad spelling day for you. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Stagemusic]

[ QUOTE ]
As an example, I wouldn't mind laughing a little when Stage gets busted


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Like I did last night "Bubble Boy" ? Actually, as you know, that's a lie...I wasn't there. I didn't get a chance to laugh until this morning. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Simon Diamond]

Sounds like Sheriff is the man for the job. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

My only suggestion is to let HULA bed down before we jump head first into another competition, besides it would take a while to negotiate terms with a site and publicise such an event.

Simon

[Simon Diamond]

If it could be arranged at stars an in NL or PL format, that would be the best.

I'm not sure that Poker Stars would be willing to run this one, they have indicated recently that they are not taking on new private tournament ventures at the moment.

Which explains why they have set up a private tourney for RGP. Still, I don't think they will go for this one.

Simon

[William]

Like I did last night "Bubble Boy" ? Actually, as you know, that's a lie...I wasn't there. I didn't get a chance to laugh until this morning

Stage, now you're really confused, the bubble was 2 days ago. You know, the same day I won the PL Omaha tourney at Stars /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I guess we both laughed, he he /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Stagemusic]

[ QUOTE ]
Stage, now you're really confused, the bubble was 2 days ago. You know, the same day I won the PL Omaha tourney at Stars

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I heard that you were umm...indisposed and one of the kids had to play for you. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Congrats. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[t_perkin]

I think that if you had a Europe/US tournament it could not be HU.

The whole point of running two different regular SnG sessions was so that people living in different time zones could all have a chance to play.

Trying to get people together for each HU match would be a nightmare. It is the reason I did not enter HULA - I figured it would be all 2am starts for me.

A one off Euro/US match would be good, but considering the turn out for the 13+1 that we played at the weekend - which was supposed to be a chance to bring euro and US together, I would try to get a feel for when people are willing to play before talking to poker rooms.

And if it is at True I am not entering. I have still not got my money for winning the Touns/Zoo/SS replay-rematch. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

jsut some thoughts

Tim

[DrPhysic]

Tell you what guys, Y'all from the upper 49 states take care of the UK contingent, and the Texans will take care of the DANES!

Doc /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Mike Haven]

Sounds like Sheriff is the man for the job.

I Second this Proposal.

I've been in pm correspondence with Sheriff, and he has some great ideas to take this forward.

Looking good!

[Simon Diamond]

Definitely Mike, I'm looking forward to hearing more about this event.

Simon

[t_perkin]

I just made a provocative post on the Zoo to see what people thought about the idea over there.

Just thought I would point it out

Tim

[DrPhysic]

I hear the UK guys are already recruiting Israelis and Danes because they can't handle it!

Doc

[Sheriff Fatman]

Thanks Tim

I've seen it and put a formal offer to try and set this up on there in response. Will cross post a link in some of the other forums to attract responses.

Hope no-one objects to me initially trying to run with this idea. I'd be happy to hear from anyone who has any views on the event.

In the short-term I'm going to try and keep progress track via posts in the Zoo so as to avoid 'wrong forum' type criticism. However I will post links to the threads whenever there is something of note to report.

Sheriff

[DrPhysic]

Sheriff,
Stars has already told me twice that they are already sponsoring KotZ (not that i know exactly what that means) and aren't really interested in anything else. And I think a lot of people have had plenty of True right now.

I do feel that KotZ, and the weekly SNG games, with possible addition of an occaisonal saturday Satellite
game, and Mike Haven's ZoovsSSvsTouns games if there are any more are basically all drawing from the same player pool. We don't want to dilute it to the point that none of the series are succesful.

I do think that a US vs Euro game on an occaisional basis, (Once every two or three months?) is a great idea. And on that kind of time frame would draw a lot of competitors without diluting the existing series.

If you have a new venue for a game like that, and can set it up, I will be happy to send an invitation to the near 90 players that we have on the mailing list for the SNG games.

I even hear that the UK bunch are already recruiting Danes and Israelis because they can't handle the heat.

Doc

[Sheriff Fatman]

Doc

I've just PM'ed you with a few more details.

Regards

Sheriff

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
I even hear that the UK bunch are already recruiting Danes and Israelis because they can't handle the heat.


[/ QUOTE ]

One thing is sure - Israelis can handle ANY heat. Good luck to you, Americans. You'll need 50 states of it.

PrayingMantis

[DrPhysic]

We can bring 47 states plus Alaska, Hawaii, and TEXAS!

Could we talk you into leaving the Mossad at home? This is a friendly game.


Doc

[DrPhysic]

Dear Praying Mantis:
The correct retort is: "You mean I can't play?"

D

[William]

Doc,

I can sense the panic being spread among our american friends. It will only be one looong moment of unbearable shame, nothing else /images/graemlins/grin.gif

About the UK recruiting Danes, I don't really know what you mean, as the Danes and other scandinavians, would crush any other team, UK and USA included, but we will be happy to let the rest of the old continent be part of the victory we will lead.

But i understand you. If I were an american, I would be worried as well /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Take care,
William

PS. I guess I will stop the poker education until after the event (he he)
(I am diabolic) /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[alekhine8]

I play on Pokerstars with the same name. Not very well, although I played much better in the last one and got my chips in with AA vs KK so I cant complain (thanks, ohKanada!).

I plan on participating weekly with or without a leaderboard. See you next week!

[DrPhysic]

Dear Diabolic,

Need I remind you who knocked whom out of the last two (or was it three) SNG's???

Doc /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Praying Mantis:
The correct retort is: "You mean I can't play?"


[/ QUOTE ]

Doc, it seems like you know way *too much*. And you know what is our procedure with people who know way *too much*. Good thing we have this tourney coming!

/images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

PrayingMantis

[DrPhysic]

You just don't appreciate the respect your military and your intelligence and covert communities have among most of the population of the US. As I remember there was this little incident at Entebbe....

Damn right we're scared of you.

Doc