What's wrong with the SS forum.

[rkiray]

Warning : I feel like venting. Don't read this if you don't want to hear me vent.

Today someone posted that one of my SS posts was harsh. I don't disagree. I think the problems with SS, why it's much worse than it was just six months ago, is there arn't enough harsh posts. Anyone who thinks my SS or Microlimit posts are harsh should go back and read the archives from 6 to 12 months ago. My posts are nothing. Particularly read the posts by Dynasty, Majorkong, and Clarkmeister. They each ripped me several new aholes, and I'm a better poker player because of it. Rigolloto and Ulysses (both probably spelled wrong) were a little less blunt but they didn't really pull any punches either. And in a more civil way I used to have great poker debates with Homer, Bob T., J.R., 'Lil, JTG, Joe Tall and many others. There arn't many good debates anymore. Maybe my problem is I'm constipated since no one has ripped me a new ahole in months. It seems like we have very few debates anymore. It's like we're in a communist country and we are all just quoting the doctrine. I can't remember the last thread where we had two people took different sides and battled it out. We used to get quite passionate. Don't see that anymore. Now that Bernie is back, ask him how passionate SS used to be able to get about JJ. I think it was much better in those days.

I actually think the problem is the quality of posts and posters has gone way down hill since the poker popularity explosion. Now most of the posts are such simple questions there is not much to argue about. And in the few cases where someone does post an interesting question or hand there are too few really good posters left to take various sides on the issues.

Oh well, seems like 44 is too young to be an angry old man. I'm just starting early.

[GuyOnTilt]

I completely agree with you. I just hope I'm not part of the problem.

I've only been around these parts for a few months now, so I wasn't around for the "glory days" of the SS, but I've noticed a big change in just the last 5 weeks. The quality of posts and discussion has gone way, way down. There's rarely any interesting posted anymore. It's just the same ol' questions, usually with simple answers. I haven't been as involved in the SS as I used to be because of this. Maybe I'll post an interesting hand or two in the next few days...but like you said, the tough ones get overlooked a lot now-a-days because there's so few posters qualified to answer them.

The only good thing I can say is that at least the OT posts have gone down.

GoT

[Bob T.]

I agree with you, but I think it is a cyclical thing. I think vehn posted the same thing sometime in the spring, well before the (in)famous 'JJ in the SB' thread.

I think that there has been an influx of new posters recently, and as you said, there are a lot of those questions that really aren't that difficult, or controversial.

The questions that are difficult, and controversial suffer from a couple of problems. First, they are difficult, and some posters aren't going to go out on a limb in a post, where they might have got it wrong. Second, the difficult ones take longer to think about and answer, and with the volume of threads out there, they drop off the front page much faster. Finally, I think some people are a little gunshy after the JJ in the SB hand. I posted a hand a little while ago, title JJ on the button, and about the second response I got was, "Do you want to start another war!?, Don't you remember what we went through with the JJ on the SB thread?"

I think, as the group of current posters gets more experience, and develops their own personal styles more, which will diverge, their will be a little more substance and debate in the forum again.

But at the same time, the last two nights, I played in online 5-10 games that had players in them, that clearly didn't have any basic poker skills, and to beat them, you just had to shell up, and play mostly weak tight poker until it was your turn to show down the winning hand. So maybe beating small stakes games is for now, a fairly simple and straightforward matter.

[bunky9590]

I posted 2 really deep thinking (really contreversial ways to play) 2 6-12 Borgata hands in SS today and had to bump them up. Did get a few responses, and actually only 1 or 2 posts that sort of disagreed with the play. I posted them to have a debate and ........... not much with it.

[bernie]

"Now that Bernie is back, ask him how passionate SS used to be able to get about JJ. "

especially when it was an apples/oranges argument that degenerated into chest beating. sometimes those threads started out great. good debates and exploration. then went downhill into a bunch of BS and unproductive crap.

new posters = old questions revisited. along with 50-100 more posts to wade through which can take a long while. much longer than before.

which isnt a bad thing. just harder to pick spots to respond.

as someone else said, it goes in cycles

b

[tpir90036]

i actually prefer when the posts are direct and to the point....there is nothing wrong with full-on harshness either. when people pull punches they dance around the issue and might be doing more harm than good. the problem is when people respond with stuff like "read a book (n/t)." this is both harsh and not terribly constructive either. maybe this is just a defense mechanism intended to drive people away who might not be serious. i realize that people are annoyed by the "what are pot odds?" posts...but hopefully the micro-limits forum will help suck up a lot of these easier, mundane questions.

anyway, here is my plea to the remaining old school posters, and the new school of solid posters alike:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

when i saw posters like dynasty start to drop off of 2+2, i became worried that i had missed the boat and would be devoid of the 2+2 experience that many of you have shared. this does not need to be the case, but it is out of my hands, and in the hands of the people reading this. i am indebted to the great posters listed in rkiray's post (and many others that i will not even try to list out) for the words of wisdom they have provided to newer players like myself whom are starving for any and all knowledge we can get. there would be no 2+2 without most of you...and i am certainly not the only person who logs on every day searching out posts specifically by all of you, hoping to take away even a small nugget of information.

please do not let the poker explosion drive you away from 2+2! and if you have been fading away or have taken a break from 2+2, it's time to come back. you know who you are, and you know you are missed. there are lots of smart people here who have years of arguing inside of them. they just need a little bit more time to grow before they are ready to step up to the plate with the living legends of this forum. the people who either are not serious or can not take the heat will fade away in due time.....however, there is a new class of posters who are here to stay, i am one of them and i know i am not alone....and to quote the Dead, we need all of you to "not fade away".... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

there can be a renaissance in the SS and on 2+2...but it starts with all of you.

sincerely,
-tpir

[Nottom]

Well I noticed Ray decided to chime in on a couple threads yesterday. I was glad to see the crazy old man visiting us poor SSers.

[daveymck]

As one of the new posters especially on micro then maybe I have to take some of the blame as do the new people like me, however I think every forum goes through cycles new people come in and cover old ground and off it goes again.

I know that I have posted if not questions that have been addressed before then hands that are not dissimilar to other people at my level of experience have played, however my learning style is through experience so I find it easier to take things in when its my hand than reading through the archive (which I have done to a point) where its not related to me.

Now I have been round a bit I wouldnt mind if someone ripped me a new arsehole as its being put, when putting in yet another hand where I have been completly stupid and not listened to advice previously given but it has to be balanced with if someone is new to the forum they may take it as being offensive until they settle in. Having said that its an online world so people should not get so upset.

I have been here just over a month and have learned a lot and just hope that the old hands can have the patience to deal with us newbies and in months to come I will be joining in with giving the advice and maybe courting controversy.

[ElSapo]

I think to some extent you may be right, but I hope you're not saying SS is some sort of black hole of a forum. And frankly, I think there's a fine line between too harsh and blunt.

There have been some good debates of late, I think, but you have to look for them. There was a Clarkmeister 4/8 hand last week I thought spurred some interesting discussion. It still happens, but it is true that much of the posts are simple hands that more or less have been covered before...

The micro-forum lifted some of the volume, but you still have people rediscovering the wheel every day.

[rkiray]

Yeah,

I remember that thread. I'm the one with the 2nd response. I thought it was a hypothetical hand, when I realized it was a real hand I apoligized.

The last couple of hands I posted that I thought were really interesting got very little response (one of them didn't get any). So lately I haven't been posting as many hands, and the ones I have posted have been simpler. Seems to be working ok, but I wish the interesting ones got more responses.

[chesspain]

Rkiray,

Unfortunately, all of my hand posts have been banished to microlimits because I play 1/2. However, I try do try to be ascerbic when responding to SS posts. I certainly could try be more of a peckerhead if necessary /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[rkiray]

Sure,

Go for it. But don't be surprized when I fire back (assuming it's aimed at me).

[rkiray]

Yeah,

Looks like Ray read Bob and my posts here and decided to go over and rip us a couple of new ones. That's great. If nothing else comes out of this thread, those two posts are worth it. I thought I was just venting. Although if anyone agreed with me I hoped they might have some ideas, I really didn't. Maybe it's time to resurect Joe Tall's vetern forum concept.

Also noticed I replied and fought back. I know Ray has forgotten more about poker than I'll ever know (he is an old man after all /images/graemlins/cool.gif) but at least I tried to defend myself. Who knows maybe he'll respond and show me how stupid the reply is. This is how I learn. I wish more of the newbies would argue with my responses to their posts.

[ResidentParanoid]

As the volume increases, finding the quality posts has been more difficult. If more and more topics seem to have been done to death, it's also your own level of experience making more and more topics mundane.

The crowd is bound to change over time. Your "heros" from months back are just moving on to other things. Find the new emerging "guru's" and follow their posts. And when the old "gods" post something of interest, post something to tear them up, just like the old days. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[rkiray]

The good debate probably happened because of the very rare Clarkmeister sighting in SS.

[Vehn]

I think the obvious thing is that the better posters and better players move up and out of small stakes games and therefore aren't as interested in following the SS forum. SS is essentially an extended beginners forum at heart anyways.

Also I agree with Bob that small stakes online games have gotten so much better in the past 9 months or so that there is no where near as much to think about in order to make a profit. A year ago, if you wanted to play $3/$6 online, the "best" place was Paradise with all of 4 tables, all of which had a flop % of under 30 (except for occasional fish that would show up and then the wait list for that table would get to 10+), and to get the money you really had to be able to play to some extent. Now it really doesn't matter as long as you play tight.

I think the real solution if there is one is to keep the number of new threads down. Don't post boring hands - respond to the hands posted and try to give some constructive criticism. I will make an effort to respond to posts in SS for the next week and see what happens.

Interestingly the opposite problem occurs in the mid/high forum where there's not enough new threads, and most of the big debates are centered around boring hands where the postee ridiculously misplayed the hand and is trying to defend her actions (pokerbabe). /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Warning - standard vehn rant below:

As an aside I think part of the problem with small stakes hold'em in general is that the restrictive blind and rake structure basically kills action. By that I mean for a $3/$6 player, there's almost no incentive to either steal or defend the blinds unless there's very weak opponents in the hand; if its folded to you in the small blind, and the big blind is at least decent, you may as well muck anything worse than AJ, because most of the money is going down the slot. So the game becomes ridiculously mechanical, and you're much better off just leaving the game if it is semi-tight with no obvious fish in it, and moving on to the next table where you can wait for the best hand and have people throw money at you. Back in the "old days" SS players didn't have that much of an option, and to some extent that makes it harder to move up to higher limits where the players in general are going to be much better. In other words you're really never forced to actually play, which generates a hundred davidross clones who 4-table low limits like robots and never get any better.

[rkiray]

Hi vehn,

Should have included you in the list of ex-SS posters we don't see anymore. We used to get a ton of posts from people who mostly play mid and high limits. Don't see that much anymore. I think the problem is two fold. First the sheer number of posts to wade through is overwhelming (you made a similar point), second many of this post are much simpler than the average SS post was last year. So they are too boring for the bigger limit players.

[Bob T.]

As an example, I wouldn't need a job, if that guy in the 6 seat last night, would show up with a $1000 every night. I have been in games where he has blown through about $1200 this week.

The entire game was isolate, and value bet. It isn't very interesting poker, and doesn't generate much that can be discussed, other than whether or not an unimproved pair of 7s is really a clearcut value bet, in a 3 way pot.

[Ray Zee]

tpir90036, i say read the book lots of time. it means that i perceive the person to have a lack of fundamental knowledge or is way off on his thinking. without doing the necessary reading and studying, that person is wasting his time and ours by asking for help which he wont understand. and wont win at poker and thats what it is all about.

[tpir90036]

as someone who has probably read too many books at this point, i understand what you are saying 100%. my point was not so much about the advice itself, but the brevity and lack of value to the comment. for example:

bad:
"read a book (n/t)"

good:
"you clearly lack a lot of fundamental knowledge. try reading 'hold'em poker' by david skalsnky"

both take a mere 10 seconds to type up...but the difference between them is significant....i suppose i am splitting hairs and coming off as overly sensitive (which could not be further from the truth) but i think you see what i am getting at...

thanks for the response!
-tpir

[FeliciaLee]

Great post!

The problem that I have with SS forum, and some of the other sections of 2+2, is that there seems to be a virtual deluge of young kids posting nonsense.

For whatever reason, they see poker as Blackjack. They think there is some kind of set formula, a "basic strategy" to go along with card counting, if you will.

If we want to mix up our play, all I hear in reply is post after post with "misplayed on every street," by these youngsters.

I am clearly a Sklansky-wannabe. I truly believe we must mix up our play, use psychological ploys, never be predictable when playing poker.

For instance, on Saturday night I was in my beloved 10/20 half kill game at the Colorado Belle. In EP, I came in raising with TT. Later, in one of the blinds, with several limpers, I limped with TT. Sometimes I'll go for the check-raise. Sometimes I'll bet out. I rarely give two free cards a la Mason, but I do it when that perfect opportunity arises.

When anyone reports a play to get some feedback and/or to write a "story," these kids start the flaming immediately. It kind of ruins the thread and the mood for me.

I have noticed that not only have we Sklansky-clones gotten a lot of BS from kids playing solely online, but even S&M themselves have gotten grief. After a while, one just stops responding.

Once I saw some child claiming over a 90% win rate in LHE. Sklansky basically said he must have been new, and on a good run. The kid flamed Sklansky! He protested over and over again what a great player he was, how he could beat "any" game, blah, blah. Sklansky came back with something like, "I'm playing at XX casino, you are welcome in my game anytime."

This is what we have been reduced to in the last few months. Listening to Internet players, in their teens, gloat about how they play "perfect" poker, never vary their play, and win ALL the time. These little Einsteins (oh, excuse me, Hellmuths, lol), are just so confident and sure that they can claim the world of poker, that many of us just aren't given a chance to post good stories about a particular table, under particular circumstances.

Like Sklansky has always said, sometimes it seems like we are making the "wrong" play, when actually there are several reasons that we are making that particular play. It pays off in dividends.

Since these kids have never played "live" poker, they don't realize this. They are splitting eights against a dealer's Ten-up, because they will "lose less" by splitting eights. They do it every time, no exception...because that is the way to play "perfect" blackjack. What they just don't realize is that is NOT the way to play live poker.

Just my 2 cents. Open to suggestion...

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Great post!

The problem that I have with SS forum, and some of the other sections of 2+2, is that there seems to be a virtual deluge of young kids posting nonsense.

For whatever reason, they see poker as Blackjack. They think there is some kind of set formula, a "basic strategy" to go along with card counting, if you will.

If we want to mix up our play, all I hear in reply is post after post with "misplayed on every street," by these youngsters.

I am clearly a Sklansky-wannabe. I truly believe we must mix up our play, use psychological ploys, never be predictable when playing poker.

For instance, on Saturday night I was in my beloved 10/20 half kill game at the Colorado Belle. In EP, I came in raising with TT. Later, in one of the blinds, with several limpers, I limped with TT. Sometimes I'll go for the check-raise. Sometimes I'll bet out. I rarely give two free cards a la Mason, but I do it when that perfect opportunity arises.

When anyone reports a play to get some feedback and/or to write a "story," these kids start the flaming immediately. It kind of ruins the thread and the mood for me.

I have noticed that not only have we Sklansky-clones gotten a lot of BS from kids playing solely online, but even S&M themselves have gotten grief. After a while, one just stops responding.

Once I saw some child claiming over a 90% win rate in LHE. Sklansky basically said he must have been new, and on a good run. The kid flamed Sklansky! He protested over and over again what a great player he was, how he could beat "any" game, blah, blah. Sklansky came back with something like, "I'm playing at XX casino, you are welcome in my game anytime."

This is what we have been reduced to in the last few months. Listening to Internet players, in their teens, gloat about how they play "perfect" poker, never vary their play, and win ALL the time. These little Einsteins (oh, excuse me, Hellmuths, lol), are just so confident and sure that they can claim the world of poker, that many of us just aren't given a chance to post good stories about a particular table, under particular circumstances.

Like Sklansky has always said, sometimes it seems like we are making the "wrong" play, when actually there are several reasons that we are making that particular play. It pays off in dividends.

Since these kids have never played "live" poker, they don't realize this. They are splitting eights against a dealer's Ten-up, because they will "lose less" by splitting eights. They do it every time, no exception...because that is the way to play "perfect" blackjack. What they just don't realize is that is NOT the way to play live poker.

Just my 2 cents. Open to suggestion...

[/ QUOTE ]


This is a great post. Since you mentioned variance I would like to share and since the author that started this post was involved let share an experience I had on SS.

To make a long story short I wrote a post in SS that conveyed my view that pocket Aces is not an Automatic raise pre-flop every time. Just about without fail I took grief in just about every response or even told to post in a different forum. (Not Humorous but based on low limit experience at Party)

Later Rkiray and myself played a session on True Poker and I misplayed a hand with A-A as I over slow-played in hopes of dropping a check-raise on an SS regular Rkiray himself. Well my greed cost me a few bets but also got posted up and down the SS forum in a jovial way at my expense.

Now I personally don't mind the flaming, matter of fact I have positive EV from each and every individual that underestimates me at the table due to this. Does everyone feel like dealing with the harsh-brashness? Perhaps some posters have left because of this.

[slavic]

Felicia -

You make a very good point and in many ways it's a shame. My play was pathetic, here let me repeat PA-THE-TIC before I found 2+2 and the SS forum. I read HEPFAP but that doesn't mean I understood it, and while I had won a few times that didn't mean I played well. If it wasn't for the tough love real world experience of a few others I'd still be shelling out BB's like a Beer man at the ball game.

I personaly don't know were the ego or the aptitude comes from for these players, but I do know that this type of aproach is almost never succesful in life. Of course how do you tell a person that to be a better player they have to change their mindset?

Oh and my signature was well earned and to date I believe I have never told another poster that it applied to them.

[slavic]

Later Rkiray and myself played a session on True Poker and I misplayed a hand with A-A as I over slow-played in hopes of dropping a check-raise on an SS regular Rkiray himself. Well my greed cost me a few bets but also got posted up and down the SS forum in a jovial way at my expense.

This may cause me some grief but I see nothing wrong in slow playing aces heads up versus an aggressive aware player. Against a callingstation I bet and raise the whole way, but against a tricky aggressive player sometimes you have to sting them.

Here is a hand for you. B&M 10/20

I have AA in EMP, I limp because the CO is an any two guy who the casino has cut off from drinking and h has been raising anything, well CO just limps, Button limps, BB checks the option.

Flop A T A suits don't matter because I forgot them.

BB checks, I check, CO checks, Button checks

Turn raggy

BB checks, I check, CO checks, Button bets, BB folds, I call, CO calls

River 2 yea I remember the 2 not the turn rag

I bet, CO calls, Button calls.

Now I killed the deck and I don't like how I played te hand at all, but people are quite a bit more leary about what you have in a hand afterwards. It gave me quite a bit of control over a few of the players. The CO was still a nut and spewed 2 racks onto the table before being kicked out but hey what can you do?

[FeliciaLee]

I cannot ever remember cruel words ever coming from you. But that doesn't mean much, as I can't read every, single post (over 1100 since May? Wow!). /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Constructive criticsm is one thing, I definitely appreciate the efforts of Clarkmeister, Ulysses, Al Capone, many others, and the 2+2 authors.

I am not, nor will I ever be, a "perfect" player. As soon as I acheive one goal, the bar is raised. When I move up in limits, the competition is tougher.

I know where my own strengths lie. Not by always making the correct mathmatical play, but by playing the player, not the cards. My weaknesses are in pure numbers. I don't always make the most out of every win (EV), due to setting up players for a call or bluff attempt on a later street. Sometimes those calls don't come. A lot of times, the bluff attempt doesn't work out.

It is amazing how I can make a certain play at the table based on what I think my opponent holds, and people at the table will "oooh and aaaah" over my "brilliant play."

Then, when I make the exact same play, but the outcome is different, people will "grunt and groan" over my idiot "mistake."

Poker is funny. It is the most unique of all casino games. If one plays full-time, with lots of the same players, in the same cardroom, one MUST vary his play constantly.

I remember early on when we moved to Arizona and I was playing in my 10/20 game. I had been consistantly beating the game for a few Saturdays. Then, a mediocre, but crafty local looked at me in across the table, in the eyes, and said, "I am NOT going to let you check-raise me again!"

He knew exactly what I had planned. Exactly! /images/graemlins/blush.gif Oops! Back to the drawing board. I had to switch up my play again! So next time I bet right out. Then a couple of hours later I got my opportunity for the double-check.

Back and forth we parry and duel in our neverending fencing match called POKER.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Later Rkiray and myself played a session on True Poker and I misplayed a hand with A-A as I over slow-played in hopes of dropping a check-raise on an SS regular Rkiray himself. Well my greed cost me a few bets but also got posted up and down the SS forum in a jovial way at my expense.

This may cause me some grief but I see nothing wrong in slow playing aces heads up versus an aggressive aware player. Against a callingstation I bet and raise the whole way, but against a tricky aggressive player sometimes you have to sting them.

Here is a hand for you. B&M 10/20

I have AA in EMP, I limp because the CO is an any two guy who the casino has cut off from drinking and h has been raising anything, well CO just limps, Button limps, BB checks the option.

Flop A T A suits don't matter because I forgot them.

BB checks, I check, CO checks, Button checks

Turn raggy

BB checks, I check, CO checks, Button bets, BB folds, I call, CO calls

River 2 yea I remember the 2 not the turn rag

I bet, CO calls, Button calls.

Now I killed the deck and I don't like how I played te hand at all, but people are quite a bit more leary about what you have in a hand afterwards. It gave me quite a bit of control over a few of the players. The CO was still a nut and spewed 2 racks onto the table before being kicked out but hey what can you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Slavic I am glad that you agree that there are some circumstances, even if rare, that calling with A-A preflop is a good thing. Aside from the tactic of maximizing profit in that 1 hand it also helps your overall strategy of making it more difficult for players that you frequently play to put you on a hand.

Though I could talk about this for hours at a time, that wasn't my point. My point was that the Poster that wants that started this discussion on posters in the SS and asking where they went may want to look at the brashness he enjoys.

I am sure some people enjoy going to war in SS and like the joke to be at their expense, but some don't and others that did may tire of it.

It becomes too much of a chore to share knowledge or an opinion.

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
It becomes too much of a chore to share knowledge or an opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent quote! May I steal it? LOL /images/graemlins/grin.gif

In my earlier example with Sklansky, he dropped the thread after telling the kid that he was invited to his live game anytime.

And this is the point...it gets old, the "masters" stop sharing their wisdom. I have also seen other of our guru's simply 'drop out' of threads. Sad.

"It becomes too much of a chore to share knowledge or an opinion."

Once again, that is getting right to the heart of the matter. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot ever remember cruel words ever coming from you. But that doesn't mean much, as I can't read every, single post (over 1100 since May? Wow!). /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Constructive criticsm is one thing, I definitely appreciate the efforts of Clarkmeister, Ulysses, Al Capone, many others, and the 2+2 authors.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't the one giving the comments I was the brunt of Rkirays post. I have never had a problem with the posters you mentioned.

Adjusting your game is what keeps Poker interesting. Take it a step further tying to anticipate the curve balls your opponent may throw at you is also challenging.

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't the one giving the comments I was the brunt of Rkirays post. I have never had a problem with the posters you mentioned.

Adjusting your game is what keeps Poker interesting. Take it a step further tying to anticipate the curve balls your opponent may throw at you is also challenging.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thomas, he was referring to the quote under his signature.

[rkiray]

I think I've only used your signature 3 times. The last time I awarded it I called it a slavic award in your honor /images/graemlins/cool.gif. Wasn't Clarkmeister the original person who coined the phrase?

[rkiray]

If it was head's up it would make more sense. He had three opponents and no money went in the pot on the turn or river. Here is a link to the thread.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=416034&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1

Notice I did not do this to make fun of TT. Originally I didn't use his name. I told him in chat that I was posting the hand. He said he would explain it there. So I thought it was then ok to give his name. He later changed his mind.

[FeliciaLee]

Pleeeeeaase, let's not turn this thread into another flaming match. For me? Guys? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

So far this thread has both started, and remained, an adult, candid conversation with some excellent observations.

I won't call Al Capone a dirty mobster if you won't. Hehe! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
If it was head's up it would make more sense. He had three opponents and no money went in the pot on the turn or river. Here is a link to the thread.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=416034&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1

Notice I did not do this to make fun of TT. Originally I didn't use his name. I told him in chat that I was posting the hand. He said he would explain it there. So I thought it was then ok to give his name. He later changed his mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me clarify a couple of things.

1. Another 2+2er and I had planned on playing in a session with the purpose of giving each other advice after the session by way of PM

2. Pm vs post, I may have misunderstood what your intention was in chat.

3. Later by PM you said you reviewed my original PM'd invitation to you and appologized for misreading Posting rather than PMing.

4. I am not angry that my name was attached to the hand that I misplayed.

5. I beleive that there were 3 or more Threads from that night. How many of these posts were written as constructive criticism?

I don't mind being the brunt of a joke but others do. I feel that a lot of this "You play like an idiot" that frequents SS is a form of bragging.

To put someone down so that you are then raised up is a subtle form of bragging.

Before you ask others to solve a problem perhaps you should first check and make sure that you aren't part of the problem.

[rkiray]

Very nice post Felicia,

I particulary liked :

[ QUOTE ]
For whatever reason, they see poker as Blackjack. They think there is some kind of set formula, a "basic strategy" to go along with card counting, if you will.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not the thread that generated the harsh comment. This comes from the microlimit forum, but I think it was the harsheset post I made yesterday.

[ QUOTE ]
I had to come back to this post since I think it's one of the stupidiest I've ever seen on any of these forums. It's very premise makes be angry. Specifically the
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My default play is to bet out and fold to a raise


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Have you ever read any of Ray Cooke's articles in Card Player? He often states that the answer to all poker questions is "It depends." This is a very important concept. Preflop I have some default plays. I generally know what to do with 38o UTG, or AA on the button with 4 limpers to me. But postflop the only situation where I have a "default play" is if I get total rags in the BB against multiple opponents and the flop completely misses me. This is really just a special case of pf play. Even if I get a free ride with 38o in the BB I might bet agsaint one or two opponents depending on what I think of my opponents and what I think they think about me. I challenge anyone to come up with an example of a postflop play where a "default play" is reasonable. HPFAP seems to take a similare view. S&M give reasonably complete advice on how to handle things preflop. But they admit postflop is much more complex, and even many of their specific postflop plays are mainly applicable in mid-limit games against reasonable to good opponents. Many of their plays cost you money in a microlimit game against morons. Also their main advice for playing in really tough games against experts is find another game.



[/ QUOTE ]


There's more but that's the nasty part.

No one responded to this (these kids need to fight back). But if he defended the concept of a default postflop play I was going to suggest if he wanted to gamble by cookbook, he should play craps, bet the pass line and always take maximum odds or buy one of little white cards for BJ and always do what it says.

Great minds must think alike.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Pleeeeeaase, let's not turn this thread into another flaming match. For me? Guys? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

So far this thread has both started, and remained, an adult, candid conversation with some excellent observations.

I won't call Al Capone a dirty mobster if you won't. Hehe! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never do that. I just stick to the facts and correct any overtures that I see.

I have never put down Rkiray or his skill level or anyone for that matter. He did start this post looking for an answer and I believe that all people should look at themselves and how they can improve something rather than place blame on others.

[El Dukie]

I'm much more of a lurker, and only an occasional poster, but I know for some of us, we're not fading away. We're just hanging out in the cardrooms, waiting for these new "experts" to make their first forays into live poker so we can "educate" them properly.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[rkiray]

I agree with everything you said in this post. And I admitted to you that I did misread your original PM. I apoligize for this again.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with everything you said in this post. And I admitted to you that I did misread your original PM. I apoligize for this again.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need to apologize again, I'm not mad never was.

I want you to see the point that if you want SS to be better start with yourself. You miss a certain style because some people stopped posting then you step up and fill the void. Why ask other's to do something you can do yourself?

Then if you are worried "the best posters" are being chased away make sure that you aren't doing the chasing. If someone posts something or innappropriate and you are worried this will chase someone away, then state the facts when it happens and be specific.

[rkiray]

Nice post TT,

I understand your point. I really don't think there is much that can be done right now though. I just had more fun when there were lots of people over who would argue with me. I learned a lot also.

I really don't think anyone in particular is doing anything wrong. It's just the sheer number of beginner questions that are overwhelming the forum. You should know better than anyone that there are lots of posters over there who arn't shy about telling someone when we think they are out of line (especially Joe Tall and I).

[Analyst]

Getting a quality forum is the responsibility of many parties. As a newbie to Hold 'Em, I need to post more situations (not really just hands), and be more willing to question advice whether it comes from another beginner or from Sklansky himself. Also, we young'uns (in the poker sense, at least) need to be willing to go out on the limb to give analysis of our own, and expose our thought processes to critique.

In either of the above cases, I'm happy to get responses to my clueless play. It's the fastest way to improve, provided that the answers are well thought-out and useful in general situations, and here is where the established players can be helpful. "Misplayed" is not, in and of itself, particularly helpful; as a beginner, I need to know why the respondant thinks the hand was misplayed, and what the play means in a broader sense. I recently posted a hand with several good responses, but one especially helpful one which called into question my pre-flop standards as a whole - much more useful than "muck PF", correct as that comment was.

Fortunately for my game, there are a number of 2+2 veterans who give such advice, and for their participation I am grateful.

I don't particularly care if the advice is delivered harshly or with kid gloves; with a couple of years on rkiray, I can take it. Shoot away - with your help, next year at this time or sooner, I'll be stacking your chips! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[rkiray]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't particularly care if the advice is delivered harshly or with kid gloves; with a couple of years on rkiray, I can take it. Shoot away - with your help, next year at this time or sooner, I'll be stacking your chips!

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it, but I like the attitude.

[Vehn]

I've read your posts in this thread 3 times and I still don't understand what you're trying to say. Maybe you misunderstand the purpose of the strategy forums on this board. Most of the time people post a hand its because they are unsure of the right action and are seeking other's opinions on it, and to learn from these responses. Not because they want to show off. It sounds to me like you're bitter because several people ripped on you for some poor plays, no matter how you look at it, like not raising before the flop with aces when its already multi-way action. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=cardroom&Number=420982&For um=All_Forums&Words=felicialee&Match=Username&Sear chpage=0&Limit=2000&Old=allposts&Main=420982&Searc h=true#Post420982) These plays are not "mixing it up", its "giving away money". I know its hard to believe, but the way you maximum your profit in games below $20/$40 is by primarily playing good solid poker and making adjustments for your opponents when you can. From what strategy/hand posts I've read from you, you consistently make fundamental mistakes in your play and then get defensive (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=402553&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=all&vc=1) when called on it. Yes when you play the same game against the same players you should be prepared to throw them some curveballs on occasion, but your weak game doesn't have the luxury of doing that. Plus in my experience its not needed much against typical $10/$20 players.

I am not a "child", nor am I a "Sklansky Clone", and neither are you, and something tells me Mr. Sklansky wouldn't think so, either; if any thing Sklansky is known for being methodically tight and math-oriented rather than "playing the player", which, by the way, is the historical excuse for being a spaz. There are very few posters here (daryn) that I would consider to be typical "rounders kids". Most of the "aggressive" posters here have years of experience and posting/reading on these forums, and thousands of dollars to show for it. But the hundreds of people who spend their time analyzing, helping, and volunteering their collective poker knowledge for free, even when its "harsh", are a bunch of "punk kids" who have never played "real" poker?

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
For whatever reason, they see poker as Blackjack. They think there is some kind of set formula, a "basic strategy" to go along with card counting, if you will.


[/ QUOTE ]

Felicia,

As usual, an excellent post, and I couldn't agree with you more. I see this alot as of late. Some newbie, who's so excited to have found the forum; they think they have struck gold.

Little do they know how dynamic the game of poker is, how it changes on every flop/turn card, how a new player in the game can loosen it/tighten it, and what it takes to become a good THINKING player.

There are the ABCs of poker, many have written about them, new players ask about them all the time, but it's the posts from the players that make us think about the game. The posts that create such debates that seemingly lack now.

I try to make an effort to post quality material, I hope my posts are and I hope to keep up my posts so that newer players that can stand the heat can learn as I did.

However, I feel it's the criticism that made me the player I am today. Frankly, I think I needed it and I was glad to recieve it. It's the posters that can take the heat that become the better players in the long run, I've said this several times before and I stick by it. I have a "no shame posting" policy which I try to adhere too, in order to get flamed by my fellow posters.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with you. I just hope I'm not part of the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please, Guy, you are one of the ones that have added to the forum, never taking away from it.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it's time to resurect Joe Tall's vetern forum concept.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I still hope for a "Pooh-Bah Lounge", but I'm sure it will never happen. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Peace,
JT

[rkiray]

Are there enough Pooh-bahs? This maybe too exclusive. What is the cut-off for vetern? I was thinking around 500 posts maybe enough. Love to here some discussion on this. Mason gave us the microlimits the second time we asked. Maybe asking twice is the secret.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Warning - standard vehn rant below:

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry vehn, we've all heard it before. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
As an aside I think part of the problem with small stakes hold'em in general is that the restrictive blind and rake structure basically kills action. By that I mean for a $3/$6 player, there's almost no incentive to either steal or defend the blinds unless there's very weak opponents in the hand; if its folded to you in the small blind, and the big blind is at least decent, you may as well muck anything worse than AJ, because most of the money is going down the slot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that there was 1 player at my 3/6 games in AC this weekend that were thinking of things such as rake and blind structure. In addition, in 24hours of play I whitnessed only 1 player truely steal the blinds, actually I didn't 'whitness' it, it WAS me and I couldn't believe there was no flop. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Are there enough Pooh-bahs? This maybe too exclusive. What is the cut-off for vetern?

[/ QUOTE ]

Veteran sounds good, I just like the name "Pooh-Bah Lounge". /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Peace,
JT

[lunchmeat]

If we're going to bad-mouth the small stakes forum, we might as well give credit where it's due...

I feel there is some very interesting discussion in the other poker forum. Even though it gets slow at times, between the monte-carlo sims and all the veteran O8sters there is some a lot of very useful information for a new player. The knowledeable posters over there aren't just parroting the same book either. They seem to have different takes on the game and their discussion is helping me a lot with my O8 play.

So not all with 2+2 is in disarray

[morgant]

Rkiray, is this not the pot calling the kettle black, just several weeks ago you made this same post(cant/lazy to dig up the thread) and i countered with some of the sides pointed out below and i believe all the thoughts below were presented. That thread is where the micro forum came from. Now as you are complaining about newbies, overforumpopulation, and repetitive questions.....Is your post not exactly what you speak of? Posting about something that has been gone over thouroughly before, and it is being done by a veteran here. Instead of taking up cyberspace and complaing, the only way to solve the problems is to get on there and make some solid critiques of peoples plays and present interesting/debatable situations. Lead by Example.
ps. pardon the harshness, i am trying to adhere to your new standards.....lol

[slavic]

The exact phrase I used in my quote is from Hutz. Though Clark did get in his 2 cents.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem that I have with SS forum, and some of the other sections of 2+2, is that there seems to be a virtual deluge of young kids posting nonsense.

For whatever reason, they see poker as Blackjack. They think there is some kind of set formula, a "basic strategy" to go along with card counting, if you will.

If we want to mix up our play, all I hear in reply is post after post with "misplayed on every street," by these youngsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to remember that many of the posters in the SS forum are still learning and need to be told that they need to raise with Aces.

To stick with the blackjack analogy, you need to learn basic strategy before you learn when you can deviate from it (based on the count of course). Many SS posters are still learning basic strategy and still won't take a hit when they have A6.

[GuyOnTilt]

Your post would apply if he posted this thread in the SS forum. But he posted it here in this one for the exact reasons you state. There's nothing hypocritical about what he's done.

GoT

[FeliciaLee]

Yep, you're absolutely right. You're PERFECT. I'm not.

Thanks for pointing that out!

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
Felicia,

As usual, an excellent post, and I couldn't agree with you more. I see this alot as of late. Some newbie, who's so excited to have found the forum; they think they have struck gold.

I try to make an effort to post quality material, I hope my posts are and I hope to keep up my posts so that newer players that can stand the heat can learn as I did.

However, I feel it's the criticism that made me the player I am today. Frankly, I think I needed it and I was glad to recieve it. It's the posters that can take the heat that become the better players in the long run, I've said this several times before and I stick by it. I have a "no shame posting" policy which I try to adhere too, in order to get flamed by my fellow posters.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks Joe! I could say the same for you.

I am sorry if I perhaps mislead you, and others involved in the thread, that constructive criticism is not desired. It most definitely is a huge priority!! I believe I said that in one of my posts, but I know how long "my" posts are, and it would be easy to miss! /images/graemlins/grin.gif You are 100% correct, IMHO.

Sometimes it seems that people must stoop to name calling and flaming. Maybe it is because they are frustrated, their point is not being taken correctly. Maybe they are running badly, or playing badly, and need to "take it out" on someone. I see so many posts that just seem like the poster is an unhappy person. I recently read a post where the flamer dropped several names in an attempt to annihilate
other posters /images/graemlins/frown.gif I just don't see where cutting others to the bone, using their screen names and/or real names in a public forum, is achieving anything other than presenting to readers the real issue, their own, personal sadness.

I truly would never hurt anyone on this forum. I would not post the names of players I feel are not playing wisely. While I most welcome constructive criticism, sometimes I feel that certain posters are so unhappy, that they absolutely have nothing good to say about any post, or anyone, for that matter. I'm sorry for them, that they do not live a good life. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

As an example, the other day I posted on another poker forum about some rumors I'd heard while in Vegas. I believe I posted the same thing on this forum, too. Fortunately, all of the feedback from 2+2 was positive!! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

But unfortunately, on this other forum, not only was I flamed, but I was told that an attorney "could" prosecute me for LIBEL about pure RUMORS I'd heard! When I repsonded to him that they were just rumors around town, and I never claimed any of them were fact, they were just gossip among poker players, he venomously attacked me, stating that even though I'd reported them as rumors, I posted them on a public poker forum, which could possibly "hurt" the poker room.

On Monday (today) he even went as far as to call the poker room and "report" to them that I was libeling them online. He stated that he did not have a Nevada license to practice law, but he was certain, in his response, that someone could prosecute me. Maybe he is looking for a referral fee?

At any rate, he seems very unhappy. He has said nothing positive in his posts. He seems to live to attack and malign other posters.

Sometimes I wonder why I got involved in these forums at all. The veil of anonymity has made some people on the Internet into cruel beasts. Respect is not given, in so many cases.

But then I get a private e-mail from someone. Someone who is genuine and kind. Thanking me for talking openly about playing with Diabetes. Encouraging my long, journalistic posts into the world of live poker, when they are in a location where live poker is not available. Thanking me for posting a positive outlook on the life of a poker player. Dozens of different reasons, hundreds of different players. And those small thanks make it all worthwhile.

There are so many posters on here that I appreciate more than I can tell. They make reading 2+2 worth it's weight in gold. Many of you inspire me daily. For that I thank you.

[tpir90036]

good post. a few comments...

[ QUOTE ]

For whatever reason, they see poker as Blackjack. They think there is some kind of set formula, a "basic strategy" to go along with card counting, if you will.


[/ QUOTE ]
for people starting out there is nothing wrong with approaching pre-flop play and possibly even flop play with a basic strategy. maybe they don't know to muck Q8o UTG. maybe they don't understand chasing with terrible odds. keep in mind, it is a small stakes forum.

[ QUOTE ]

If we want to mix up our play, all I hear in reply is post after post with "misplayed on every street," by these youngsters.
...
When anyone reports a play to get some feedback and/or to write a "story," these kids start the flaming immediately. It kind of ruins the thread and the mood for me. This is what we have been reduced to in the last few months. Listening to Internet players, in their teens...


[/ QUOTE ]
i don't think anyone on this site would reccommend never mixing up play. however, there is little to no reason to mix up play in most low-limit games that are talked about on the SS forum. in the 30/60 games, sure, but when people are going to call with J3o in a 2/4 game then there is nothing wrong with telling someone to raise KK every single time.

also, the fact that you are "mixing up your play" implies that there is a normal way to play a situation...us newbies need to learn the default play from somewhere, no? we can't mix it up if we have nowhere to mix from /images/graemlins/wink.gif

i understand what you are saying, but i read two plus two every day and i just don't see all of the "young kids flaming people". was your entire post about your aces thread? if it was i think it's time to get over it...that might sound harsh, but it is not meant to be. my point is that a few vocal posters does not a majority make.

i have never even responded to one of your posts (until now) let alone flamed you as i don't play in the limits you play. just realize that there are plenty of newer players on here who are not young kids that enjoy very much reading about what goes on in yours and many other posters games. i know the SS forums are not exciting to everyone but they are very important to a lot of us....

-tpir

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
good post. a few comments...

[ QUOTE ]

For whatever reason, they see poker as Blackjack. They think there is some kind of set formula, a "basic strategy" to go along with card counting, if you will.


[/ QUOTE ]
for people starting out there is nothing wrong with approaching pre-flop play and possibly even flop play with a basic strategy. maybe they don't know to muck Q8o UTG. maybe they don't understand chasing with terrible odds. keep in mind, it is a small stakes forum.

[ QUOTE ]

If we want to mix up our play, all I hear in reply is post after post with "misplayed on every street," by these youngsters.
...
When anyone reports a play to get some feedback and/or to write a "story," these kids start the flaming immediately. It kind of ruins the thread and the mood for me. This is what we have been reduced to in the last few months. Listening to Internet players, in their teens...


[/ QUOTE ]
i don't think anyone on this site would reccommend never mixing up play. however, there is little to no reason to mix up play in most low-limit games that are talked about on the SS forum. in the 30/60 games, sure, but when people are going to call with J3o in a 2/4 game then there is nothing wrong with telling someone to raise KK every single time.

also, the fact that you are "mixing up your play" implies that there is a normal way to play a situation...us newbies need to learn the default play from somewhere, no? we can't mix it up if we have nowhere to mix from /images/graemlins/wink.gif

i understand what you are saying, but i read two plus two every day and i just don't see all of the "young kids flaming people". was your entire post about your aces thread? if it was i think it's time to get over it...that might sound harsh, but it is not meant to be. my point is that a few vocal posters does not a majority make.

i have never even responded to one of your posts (until now) let alone flamed you as i don't play in the limits you play. just realize that there are plenty of newer players on here who are not young kids that enjoy very much reading about what goes on in yours and many other posters games. i know the SS forums are not exciting to everyone but they are very important to a lot of us....

-tpir

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry that I confused so many people. I immediately took it out of the SS forum, and said something to the effect of "...and other sections of 2+2..." I also tend to lump quite a few poker forums together, as I post on so many, so I can definitely read too much negativity, yet place ALL of the blame on just a few 2+2ers. Very negligent of me!

Yes, you are absolutely right, in small stakes, I usually play by rote. I apologize for any confusion. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

No, lol, in the AA post, I was apologetic from the start. I said that it was a BAD play, right in the original post. I was just trying to write a good story for anyone who happened upon the post, not just a total trip report. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

When someone commented on how BAD the play was, I immediately agreed with him. I don't believe it went any further than that. I cannot find any other post in the thread that references my misplay with two aces. So no, not only do I believe I was treated well in that thread, but I also know that I made a mistake, which I posted clearly from the beginning.

Thanks for pointing these things out for me, truly! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[tpir90036]

no confusion, per se. it is just that i have found 2+2 to be one of the most pleasant, informative and (mostly /images/graemlins/wink.gif) flame free places to be on the 'net. especailyl when you factor in that we are talking about gambling! he he he.

thanks for the response...
good night,
-tpir

[Vehn]

Ah yes the old ad hominem. Attack me, not what I said - makes about as much sense as not raising aces after limpers.

[J_V]

I agree many kids are on here posting some nonsense, including myself.

But young kids are the new wave of poker. Of all the people making 100k a year playing poker, I'd guess that three quarters are on the internet now. And a huge percentage of these players are under 30. I have 5 that I know personally have done this and I don't know anyone in the poker world.

The idea of the old casino shark is really passe. I'm more afraid of a kid who just turned 21 at the high limits than someone over 40.

[J_V]

Yes a clear ad hominem. I also agreed with most of what you said, but I take it that you were offended as I was by the attack on young players.

[Diplomat]

Just a note: I think this string is ironic, as what might have been a good debate about how the small stakes could become a stronger forum has degenerated into...well the usual crap we were trying to avoid in the first place.

Note to JV -- I could not agree more about the age thing. I heard a rumour that Erik123 is 20, and the best player in my cardroom got kicked out two months ago for being under age...and the minimum age here is 19. That's not to say all of us 'kids' are fantastic players, but there sure are more of us around.

-Diplomat

[rkiray]

Yeah, this is more or less the same thing as a few weeks ago. Unfortunately the microlimit forum didn't really change much. I'm glad it's there, but even with it taking some of the load the SS is still overloaded.

I am leading by example. I posted here instead of in SS. This forum is not overloaded.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]

I am leading by example. I posted here instead of in SS. This forum is not overloaded.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should come to the Zoo where the Critters graze and 1 can post without fear of a hairy donkey kicking you in the puttuties.

[rkiray]

I more or less agree with David Ross about the zoo. But over the weekend I was starting to think about spending more time in the zoo and less in SS since the poker content was becoming so horrible. I must admit it's been better the last couple of days. Maybe this thread had some value.

[HUSKER'66]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe asking twice is the secret.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beetlejuice, beetlejuice, beetlejuice!!!!!!! /images/graemlins/ooo.gif





















............. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif................ /images/graemlins/frown.gif.........nothing /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Nottom]

I still get a kick out of this guy ... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[J_V]

You're a kid too, man the odds are really stacking in our favor. Based on your politeness, I assumed you were much older.

The number of good kids is gonna start skyrocketing too. To be 21 or 23 now meant you had to be playing under age for a long time. By the time, the kids my age are 26 we will have many more good youngsters.

[rkiray]

Tim Burton directing Genna Davis and Wynona Ryder, no wonder it's a great movie.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Does putting other people down make you feel like a big man? If so, your ego must be bigger than all of Chicago. The flames you spewed at felicialee were entirely unnecessary. I have seen you flame others in the past whom I like, most notably PokerBabe. She's a friend of mine, but that's not why I think she's a good player, and a great poster. I have actually SEEN her play LIVE. She has the best coach in the world too. I have also played extensively with felicialee when she used to play on the internet. She's also a fine writer, tho obviously you don't care for her style. Whatever, some of us like her posts and her journal. It should be noted her journal subscription numbers went up a BUNCH since this thread got going. Flames always attract attention, maybe that's why you flame so much.

I thought felicialee's post was legit, and she had some good points (tho i doubt this is what the original post was really getting at). I agree with her in principle, but I still participate on the SS forum anyway. I just filter the BS and occasionally flame the "90% win-raters." There are quite a few morons that hang around SS, but then anytime you're on a public forum that will be the case. I however, feel much the same way about the internet forum as felicialee does about SS. I hate it because of all the people who constantly spew forth dribble and innaneness, and I have been pretty vocal about it in the past. As it stands I never go there unless someone points out something specific that catches my attention.

All this said, I fully expect more flames from you on this post. I very well may not reply to them, but then again, there's nothing more fun than dumping gasoline on fire (you should know about that).

al

[thomastem]

I want Joey Bitch back!

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[thomastem]

[Guido]

15 point / quotes from this thread

1 There aren't enough harsh posts.

2 There aren't many good debates anymore.

3 The problem is the quality of posts and posters has gone way down hill since the poker popularity explosion. Now most of the posts are such simple questions there is not much to argue about.

4 The questions that are difficult, and controversial suffer from a couple of problems. First , they are difficult, and some posters aren't going to go out on a limb in a post, where they might have got it wrong. Second, the difficult ones take longer to think about and answer, and with the volume of threads out there, they drop off the front page much faster. Finally, I think some people are a little gunshy.

5 It's a cyclical thing. As the group of current posters gets more experience, and develops their own personal styles more, which will diverge, their will be a little more substance and debate in the forum again.

6 New posters = old questions revisited. Along with 50-100 more posts to wade through which can take a long while, much longer than before. Which isnt a bad thing. just harder to pick spots to respond.

7 As the volume increases, finding the quality posts has been more difficult. If more and more topics seem to have been done to death, it's also your own level of experience making more and more topics mundane.

8 The obvious thing is that the better posters and better players move up and out of small stakes games and therefore aren't as interested in following the SS forum. SS is essentially an extended beginners forum at heart anyways.

9 I think the real solution if there is one is to keep the number of new threads down. Don't post boring hands - respond to the hands posted and try to give some constructive criticism.

10 There seems to be a virtual deluge of young kids posting nonsense.

11 It becomes too much of a chore to share knowledge or an opinion.

12 Most of the "aggressive" posters here have years of experience and posting/reading on these forums, and thousands of dollars to show for it. But the hundreds of people who spend their time analyzing, helping, and volunteering their collective poker knowledge for free, even when its "harsh", are a bunch of "punk kids" who have never played "real" poker?

13 Small thanks make it all worthwhile. There are so many posters on here that I appreciate more than I can tell. They make reading 2+2 worth it's weight in gold. Many of you inspire me daily. For that I thank you.

14 As I post on so many, so I can definitely read too much negativity, yet place ALL of the blame on just a few 2+2ers. Very negligent of me!

15 The idea of the old casino shark is really passe. I'm more afraid of a kid who just turned 21 at the high limits than someone over 40.

Summary:
I think we to have split the SS "problem" in two. There is a quality problem and a quantity problem. Most irritation comes from the quality problem. I think nobody would complain when there where tons of good questions / posts, so the biggest problem is about the quality of the posts. It could be cyclical thing. If that's the case, then this problem will solve itself.

If it's not a cyclical thing, we must find a solution to solve it. Personally I don't respond as much as I did a few weeks ago. Part of the reason is because I can't keep up with all the posts. Another reason is because of the quality of the posts. I stopped responding to most AA, KK, QQ and some other hands because I think there has been enough information in the archives about these topics (about 10 a day /images/graemlins/grin.gif). Perhaps this helps to get the quality up.

Any other suggestions to solve the quality problem? I don't like a special veteran or pooh-bah forum because that would exclude me /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Some complains where about young posters. Personally I don't think that's a problem. I don't think when you are 40 you are a better pokerplayer then somebody who is 23 like myself /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I agree somebody who is 40, probably has more experience. I just like a good debate and want to learn as much as possible.

One thing for rkiray: just think about our 99 debate /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hope this summary helps... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Vehn]

So its OK for Felicia to directly flame the hundreds of posters in the strategy forums who spend thousands of hours analyzing and talking about poker for no personal benefit, but its not OK for me to call her on it? Gotcha. And then you have the gall to say in the next breath that everyone in the zoo, aka the most traffic-heavy forum on the whole board, "constantly spew forth dribble and innaneness". Well on behalf of everyone who LIKES the zoo, and LIKES the strategy forums: lick my bunghole.

I do, though, admire you for your attempt to get laid on the internet. What a novel concept! Let me know how that works out for you.

p.s. I've met the pokerbabe as well. Err I'm sorry, let me try again, I have actually SEEN her play LIVE. *** SWOON ***

[Wake up CALL]

"I'm more afraid of a kid who just turned 21 at the high limits than someone over 40. "

I do believe this is the funniest line in this entire thread!

[Inthacup]

I have actually SEEN her play LIVE. *** SWOON ***


ROFL.

[bernie]

nice post felicia.

not all of the flamers are young. im sure you've sat at a table and seen older men act like babies. id say some of the flamers are older just as some of the real good stuff comes from the younger posters as well.

spot on about the BJ approach. but i think that's part of the learning cycle. they win a little and go into tunnel-vision mode. we've all been there at one point. some longer than others. some never get out of it, some only stay for a few sessions. then they get into a different texture game and are lost because their BJ approach is getting it's ass handed to them.

the ones who brag about the winrates eventually drop off. usually right when the swings take a turn. then they whine and cry about never having a hand hold up for sessions at a time. welcome to the game, sparky. though some calm a bit after the reality of the game hits.

eventually they will learn there is no way to play perfect poker all the time. ever.

to add one...(rant alert)

i see players constantly asking about their stats. i skip those posts. why? stats show us nothing about your play or the hands you've seen that would give us any meat to chew on. if someone asks 'i think i'm playing too tight with my flop rate at 10% in 20 hours...'
what if this player really isnt getting dealt anything yet someone replies with, 'you should be seeing more flops...' how is he supposed to adjust? play more hands so his % goes up and 'looks' better? turn it over and say he's seeing 39%. someone says he's playing too loose and should tighten up. how can one say anything without seeing his hands? is he s'posed to fold playable hands so as to keep his % down and more 'right'?

the only stats i track are whether im up or down at the end of a session. if i want to know about a flop rate, ill post a hand to see if that's the type of hand i should be playing in that situation. it's a hand by hand analysis. not a blanket flop %.

all done. that felt good.

again, nice post

b

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Pretty good flamage. touche. At least we have one thing in common, our love for dumping gasoline on fires. Been a pyro all my life, obviously you too.

Not trying to get laid via the internet. Pokerbabe is attached and felicialee is married. Internet dating sucks anyway, I stick to other means like the grocery store (oops, giving away my secrets lol).

The point is we all have our opinions, and felicialee is entitled to hers. I stand by my opinion of the internet forum, flames or no flames. I also stand by my opinion of pokerbabe's play. She never posts the thousands of solid, formula-o-matic oker hands she plays. Perhaps that's why she draws flames.

BTW I don't deny that there are many very good players and posters on the Inet forum. I just hate sifting through the innaneness and dribble that is constantly spewed forth there in order to find it. I have even tried to get some of the best posters there to come to the other forums, where I am more likely to be found, and thus see their posts.

Anyway, it's all about dumping gas on fires, nothing personal....

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

nice counter-post. Glad to see someone agreed with felicialee instead of flaming her (or re-flaming, counter-flaming, etc).

More power too ya about your views on stats!! I HATE online poker stats! Kinda ironic since I actually love statistics and microsoft excel, isn't it?

[ QUOTE ]
eventually they will learn there is no way to play perfect poker all the time. ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you very much!!!!! Bernie, I am adding you to my list of super-heros! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
"I'm more afraid of a kid who just turned 21 at the high limits than someone over 40. "

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that's pretty funny. Young punks at the poker table are generally fish. Of course a few are solid 2+2ers, so making a generalization and then not adjusting it in the face of new info can be hazardous to your bankroll. I am generally most vexed by slightly older, but not ancient men, they are generally quite tight and not easy to get $$ out of.

al

[J_V]

I don't know why? You must disagree, but then again, I don't think you play high limits. Players who are that young made it by winning at poker. There just not that many kids who can afford to lose 10k in a day through other means.

I started playing casino poker at 18 and the 2 of the top on the internet and probably the world are 24 and 20.

[bernie]

y'know, ive seen some of the younger crowd come in and play. and some are full of piss and vinegar. some just want to have fun, and some are pretty good. (though you can wear em down after a couple hours since theyre not used to sitting in a smoke filled cardroom with strangers hours on end)

usually you can get a little line on em when they walk in.
i sat with 2 guys once. watching them walk in i could see they hadn't been around a cardroom much. one was a cocky little prick. the other was kind of quiet and just played. he actually played well enough to break even or to beat the table a little. nothing fancy. the cocky guy won a couple and thought he was great for about an hour. til the cards turned. then he pissed and moaned and let his ego get in there a bit. but his bud didnt do any of this no matter how the cards went. (this kid looked about 12, which suprised/impressed me even more how he played and conducted himself)

after a couple hours, i went and grabbed a brush, gave her a tip, and told her to offer the kid a comp. (back when we got comps) so she tapped his shoulder, and he looked confused at being offered the freebie. it seemed to give him a little lift. then his buddy (and some chick), who busted out about an hour earlier came and checked on him and was shocked that he got a comp. he almost looked a little jealous. the chick seemed impressed. (it was pretty easy to get a comp, but they didnt know that). i could see that it made the kid feel even better.

a little off topic, but it felt good to give the kid a little shiny moment in front of his friends his 1st time in.

not all young guys are morons.

++now back to your regularly scheduled thread++

b

[J_V]

"I am generally most vexed by slightly older, but not ancient men, they are generally quite tight and not easy to get $$ out of."

Yeah, real tough lol. Young punks don't have enough money to play 60-120 and higher. I wasn't referring to your regular 5-10 game or whatever the hell you play.

Your TOM's wouldn't be tough if you gave them brass knuckles.

[J_V]

You too, not talking about 10-20 here. But even at these levels, the BEST players at these games are young.

[Ed Miller]

vehn is an old foggie... he's definitely older than I am. And I'm starting to feel old...

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Such thoughts never occurred to me. I am just wimpy and never raise, I'm a calling station. Maybe I should call you up and you can give me aggressiveness lessons. Cuz I never even thought of that all on my own. Plus since I generally play 5-10 and 10-20 my opinions are meaningless and should be both ridiculed and ignored. Yes, you have helped me a great deal, Now I'll just take the cyanide capsules I have been hoarding since the iraq-iran war and quit posting forever so top players like you can hoard all the attention with your sarcasm and unpleasantness.

al

[slavic]

Shut up you wipper-snapper

[Vehn]

[ QUOTE ]
You must disagree, but then again, I don't think you play high limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he plays poker at all?

[Vehn]

I'm 27. Kids these days..

[thomastem]

Bring Joet Bitch back

[CrackerZack]

MK is the same age as my sister who is married, has a kid, a house and another kid on the way. vehn_ is the same age as me with a similar social situation but a better poker one /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I think I like poker because its like peter pan's world where we never have to grow up.

[rkiray]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I like poker because its like peter pan's world where we never have to grow up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy did you pick the right thread for this comment. This thread has collapsed into a debate worse than the average kidergarden class. Seems to mostly be just name calling now. I guess the first post should have been, what's wrong with all the 2+2 forums?

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the first post should have been, what's wrong with all the 2+2 forums?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple. Not enough Joey Bitch.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why? You must disagree, but then again, I don't think you play high limits. Players who are that young made it by winning at poker. There just not that many kids who can afford to lose 10k in a day through other means.

I started playing casino poker at 18 and the 2 of the top on the internet and probably the world are 24 and 20.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well as far as high limits go they are relative. Allow me to put it to you like this: It is highly likely that I will bet more on the Super Bowl than your entire net worth. So high limits to you and me would be drastically different amounts. My guess is to me what you call high limits would be micro limits to me. I would even venture a guess that what you call high limits are generally considered mid limits to most adults.

If you believe the two best poker players in the world are under 25 years old then we must live in completely different worlds as well. That is not to say that there is not a large group of very talented young poker players of which I gather you believe you are one but if you group all the babies together along with all the adults Ill take my chance playing against the random pups.

To expalin my last paragraph further I would say that a higher percentage of players over 40 are better players than the 20 somethings. Just because someone has a lot of expendable cash that does not make them a good poker player no matter their age. You are likely a much better player than I but that does not make you smarter nor more likely to be correct in your analysis on this subject.

[Magikist]

The problem? Maybe people take themselves too seriously.

Anyway, I had an interesting debate on the S+S forum not long ago. It was worthwhile because it made me reconsider my typical line of thinking. That was Clarkmeister's "4-8 Mildly interesting post-flop choices".

[Nottom]

Its funny that a rare CM siting in SS makes for one of the more interesting threads in a long time.

[J_V]

"Well as far as high limits go they are relative. Allow me to put it to you like this: It is highly likely that I will bet more on the Super Bowl than your entire net worth."


Defensive eh? Not a chance that is true, btw. Secondly, we were talking about poker here, right?


"To expalin my last paragraph further I would say that a higher percentage of players over 40 are better players than the 20 somethings. Just because someone has a lot of expendable cash that does not make them a good poker player no matter their age. You are likely a much better player than I but that does not make you smarter nor more likely to be correct in your analysis on this subject"

This isn't the point of my argument. Most 20 somethings blow. But they are playing 1-5 stud and 5-10 holdem and maybe they get up to 20-40.

But players playing 100-200 and higher beat the hell outt've all the games on their way up. Or at least that's how every friend I know but one did it. They turned there 30 dollar bankroll into 300k in a few years. The other sells drugs but still plays very well. It's much more likely the older players aquired there money by other means.

"My guess is to me what you call high limits would be micro limits to me. I would even venture a guess that what you call high limits are generally considered mid limits to most adults"

I don't know what you mean by this, but I lost 5k yesterday and won 5k the two days before that. People may take on larger day to day fluctuations, but most don't. And yes, I believe a person that has played high limits is more qualified to comment on this topic than someone who has not, ceteris paribus. And lastly, I do not claim to be smarter or a better player. Based are your arguing technique, you are obviously very bright, albeit incredibly frustrating. This is turning into a bad animated batman series (obviously I am Batman and you are Penguin). May we do battle again soon, old fogie.

[bernie]

however, some guys, regardless of age, forget how to adjust to a typical LL game and lose when they step back down to play. they become accustomed to one type of table. i've seen this quite often. in fact, at an old room i used to play at, i made quite a bit off these types of guys. one reason is the money doesnt matter as much. but losing is losing.

which is one reason i dont consider an adjustment based on the limit of the bet, but rather the texture the table presents. whether im playing 10-20 or a .01-.02 table. i even pulled off a stone bluff on the pennys. guy didnt want to call 2 cents. it's possible. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

b

[Dixie Normous]

[thomastem]

We need Joey Bitch to come back!

[rkiray]

Because I actually try to respect the limits stated on the main index. In the case of microlimits I respect what the majority voted when the page was established.

Obviously newbies can post at low-limits. We have way to many of them. You are obviously a psychopathic moron. How are you going to crush my head? You are totally full of BS.

Sigh. I think this is the first post I've started that reached 6 pages. I'd also say it has become the all time worst thread I started. Well, it sort of shows what these forums have become.

[Dixie Normous]

[thomastem]

Holy crap this thing is still at the front and top.

Bring back Joey Bitch

[thomastem]

Rkiray congrats you have cleared 2000 views for this post. I wonder what the record is?

[rkiray]

Wow, I didn't think anyone could come up with posts more inane than TT, but you managed. There is one big difference. Your posts actually make me laugh.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I didn't think anyone could come up with posts more inane than TT, but you managed. There is one big difference. Your posts actually make me laugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are taking shots at me again. I know TT is short for me. I would send another critter after you but the last one got married.

[Diplomat]

Not even close. check out the sklansky post in the general forum.

-Diplomat

[OrangeHeat]

[Dixie Normous]

[thomastem]

Now Orange if that were/is true that is a great shot at Rkiray. Dare I say best shot on 2+2?

[OrangeHeat]

Yes..he even complimented you...

VN

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes..he even complimented you...

VN

[/ QUOTE ]

Rkiray has damaged his Grey Poupon image.

[rkiray]

I hope it was the bison. She's needed marrying off for a long time. Of course the bull should be happy since she's apparantly constantly in heat. ( Or maybe's he's just tried).

[rkiray]

Thanks TT,

For a thread started by me it's a record by a landslide. I wonder what the overall record is also. Probably the thread asking if poker players are agnostic. Too bad it's probably the thread with dumbest content.

[rkiray]

So besides being moronic and crude you are also illiterate.

[rkiray]

Never thought I'd say this, but that post was an insult to TT.

[Redhotman]

The SS forum helped me out alot, and after awhile I stopped posting and instead jsut browed archives. Also, alot of SS players are playing multiple games, so everything is becoming mechanical and not alot of questions.

[thomastem]

I just figured it out, Gabbyyy hasn't been posting there.

[Your Mom]

Felicia, I have never seen you post once on the SS forum so I don't really see why you feel the need to post in this thread. I completely agree with vehn- your post makes little, if any, sense. If following standard poker play makes me a "Sklansky clone" then I guess I am guilty. I don't think you have any knowledge of what it takes to beat low limit (SMALL STAKES) online poker. There is no point in mixing up your play when you play against a bunch of different fish every session. When someone posts a hand, they want to know how to play it optimally. Of course, there may be reasons to deviate but that is almost never what the poster wants to know.
I also like how you have somehow figured out that all of over at the SS are teenage kids who think they are geniuses. If we think we are so smart, then why the hell would we come to a site and post hands and ask questions. Please explain that to me. In fact, explain your whole post because I just don't get it.

[thomastem]

A lack of Gabbyyy posts and no Joey Bitch. SS needs some color. Let the Zoo be an example.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
SS needs some color. Let the Zoo be an example.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this might be the funniest thing you've ever posted.

[Nottom]

Just pretend you never saw it.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow this post has my head swimming. Since I'm new could someone summarize?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gee I wouldn't know where to begin.

[rkiray]

Yeah, this is good advice. I was basically in a bad mood that day, read some posts I thought were particularly poor, and then read a response to one of my posts that set me off. I don't like spamming in SS, so I came over here and vented. I figured the thread would quickly disappear. It totally amazes me that it is by far the thread that has gotten the most responses and views of any thread I've started. I'd also say overall it probably has the worst content. Perhaps that is a statement about the current state of these forums.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this is good advice. I was basically in a bad mood that day, read some posts I thought were particularly poor, and then read a response to one of my posts that set me off. I don't like spamming in SS, so I came over here and vented. I figured the thread would quickly disappear. It totally amazes me that it is by far the thread that has gotten the most responses and views of any thread I've started. I'd also say overall it probably has the worst content. Perhaps that is a statement about the current state of these forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

The biggest post I've seen in the Zoo was titled "Did you know most women have never seen their Vagina?" Yes this post as well as your vent and the respective popularity says something to the condition of people in general.

Here's my theory. There are different kinds of stress. You work a job you either have physical, mental, or a combination of both. Different people have different ways of dealing/releasing this stress. They may go to a bar and watch a sporting event, go home and listen to classical music or in bad ways like road rage or kicking the dog people find outlets for releasing stress. Internet Poker players have this outlet. If they need to Rant, use humor, or flame someone for incorrect facts so be it.

Releasing stress allows us to go back and play our "A" game. I think we've all, if we play regularly, had our sessions where we were aggravated or distracted. We don't have the same focus, we become less patient, and much easier to tilt.

Now RK this isn't a hand break down or a probability problem but it is our human nature. From Sun Tzu's(Not exact don't have book here at worked, paraphrased) "The Art of War", "It is imperitive to know your enemy but if you don't know yourself first, all is lost."

This whole post has allowed people to vent and then go play their "A" game. You have nothing to be embarrassed about with this post, it is NOT spam, and is doing 2+2ers a service.

Don't believe me? Results speak for themselves look at the amount of post and views. We owe you a thank you for a great post.

Thank Rkiray.

[thomastem]

Strip Poker would liven up SS!

While we're at it, the WSP (World Strip POker) should replace WPT. Put Paris Hilton and several other hot celebs on and let them play! When it's the final 2 Ms. Hiatt comes out and pulls the rip cord, but intead of money a big vat of olive oil pours down. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[thomastem]

The SS needs to be more like the Zoo.

[Redhotman]

i been jerking off to paris with olive oil all night long. YEah i know

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
i been jerking off to paris with olive oil all night long. YEah i know

[/ QUOTE ]


Are you saying the SS needs Olive Oil, Paris, or both?

[thomastem]

Does the SS forum differentiate between Internet and B&M?

[chesspain]

Tell the penguins to dig up some carion which is not as old and smelly as this dead thread /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Tell the penguins to dig up some carion which is not as old and smelly as this dead thread /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but does anyone find it odd that is big and old this thread is there wasn't an answer to the question?

[rkiray]

No. Microlimits is basically for games that are too small for B&M, so it's basically an internet forum. SS has posts on both.

PS I got my $22 from True for the side bet last night.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]


PS I got my $22 from True for the side bet last night.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's about time. Weren't they suppose to give you $22 from me and $10 from them making it $32?

[rkiray]

They gave me the extra $5 a day or two after the tourney. It was only the $22 that took some effort to get.

[thomastem]

Glad that's done.

So what is the answer to the question that you posed? If the SS were more like the Zoo I think your problems would be gone.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
So what is the answer to the question that you posed?

[/ QUOTE ]

When rikray post this last year, it was a hot topic. However, I think this post may have cured the problem. There has been a resurgence of in the SS as of late. Some pending, raging debates, egos flying high, quality posts, just like old school. It's obvious that you have not been lurking in there for last few weeks.

[ QUOTE ]
If the SS were more like the Zoo I think your problems would be gone

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are correct but that's what we are trying not to happen. We do not another waste land of "Crooked Deal", "Fixed Games", meow, chow, meow posts. Just a soild strategy discussion that can turn a hack like me into a winning poker player.

Peace,
JT

[Bob T.]

There has been a resurgence of in the SS as of late. Some pending, raging debates, egos flying high, quality posts, just like old school. It's obvious that you have not been lurking in there for last few weeks.


Like I said a long time ago, I think we just go through cycles. Or maybe the forum is running good right now.

[rkiray]

It's probably just a coincidense, but the SS forum did start getting more interesting posts immediately after I made the original post, and that seems to be continuing. Maybe it is just a cycle thing. I still don't think we are back to what it used to be. As someone else pointed out in this thread, I think there are too many posters now who are mostly playing 3-5 games online at the same time. Therefore they can't really think about poker at the level that I want to discuss it. Basically they come here to ask how to optimize the programming on their "human bots".

But maybe the one thing this thread did was help people understand that debate is good. We should not just always agree. We are actually getting good debates now. We actually have a few people going over the top. But this is good. We need the pendulum to swing a bit in favor of overaggressive posts. These forums arn't much good if there is no debate. I suppose they serve a limited purpose for people who don't know which Vegas cardrooms spread 10/20. But I think everyone is better off when we disagree on how to play poker hands. As long as people explain why they think something. Defaulting into random name calling doesn't help anyone.

[thomastem]

Debate is good. So how many have started using critters in their game?

[Roy Munson]

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't think we are back to what it used to be. As someone else pointed out in this thread, I think there are too many posters now who are mostly playing 3-5 games online at the same time. Therefore they can't really think about poker at the level that I want to discuss it. Basically they come here to ask how to optimize the programming on their "human bots".


[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I think most players at lower limits online would be well served to play as human bots. I just don't think there is much to be gained in most cases by concentrating on trying to "make plays" and what not at your average table, certainly not more than you add by simply "botting" an additional table.

Now if you are playing live or at higher limits (5/10 and up online), then getting out of the bot mentality is much more important.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I still don't think we are back to what it used to be. As someone else pointed out in this thread, I think there are too many posters now who are mostly playing 3-5 games online at the same time. Therefore they can't really think about poker at the level that I want to discuss it. Basically they come here to ask how to optimize the programming on their "human bots".


[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I think most players at lower limits online would be well served to play as human bots. I just don't think there is much to be gained in most cases by concentrating on trying to "make plays" and what not at your average table, certainly not more than you add by simply "botting" an additional table.

Now if you are playing live or at higher limits (5/10 and up online), then getting out of the bot mentality is much more important.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is being learned by playing like a bot? How do you learn to play the higher limits without adjusting your game?

[rkiray]

This time I mostly agree with TT, but I think nottom has some good points also. I don't see how you can learn by playing like a bot. That's why I don't like posts from people who seem to be playing that way.

On the other hand since the poker explosion many of the new players probably need to start by playing like bots and optimizing their "programs". After they have more experience then they can start adapting their play more. A year ago, most of the posters (even the new ones) had been playing poker for years and reading the books. Poker wasn't popular and this site was fairly obscure, so lots of people who found it were really into poker and had been for a long time. The current forums are probably appropriate for the current audience.

Also I think we had a higher proportion of players who played B&M (there has always been a mixture in SS of course) and even the ones who played on-line mainly played one or at most two tables. I didn't remeber reading many posts from people playing 3 or more tables at one time until last summer. I think once you get to 3 tables you more or less have to think like a bot.

[thomastem]

That said, wouldn't it be nice to play 2 tables at True? How many people out there have a shot at True's Rake promo?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
What is being learned by playing like a bot? How do you learn to play the higher limits without adjusting your game?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the most part nothing, except how to play like a bot. Granted playing like a good bot is still playing better than 90% of the players out there. A lot of it really comes down to what you want out of the game. If you are only concerned with making money and have a limited BR, then botting multiple 2/4 or 3/6 tables is the most efficient way to win. If you are trying to learn then you need to stop and think about whats going on so you obviously need to get out of the bot mentality.

However, I truely believe that if you are currently a losing player at low limits then you should learn how to be a bot first, before learning how to optimize your play based on changes in table texture and other factors. This is the stage where many of the posters in the low/micro-limit forums currently live, they still need to learn the basics (playing tight, raising preflop with good hands, using pot odds, etc) and if you play a basic game of ABC poker then I guess you are a bot.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is being learned by playing like a bot? How do you learn to play the higher limits without adjusting your game?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the most part nothing, except how to play like a bot. Granted playing like a good bot is still playing better than 90% of the players out there. A lot of it really comes down to what you want out of the game. If you are only concerned with making money and have a limited BR, then botting multiple 2/4 or 3/6 tables is the most efficient way to win. If you are trying to learn then you need to stop and think about whats going on so you obviously need to get out of the bot mentality.

However, I truely believe that if you are currently a losing player at low limits then you should learn how to be a bot first, before learning how to optimize your play based on changes in table texture and other factors. This is the stage where many of the posters in the low/micro-limit forums currently live, they still need to learn the basics (playing tight, raising preflop with good hands, using pot odds, etc) and if you play a basic game of ABC poker then I guess you are a bot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, being bot like is the 1st step. If being a bot is the first step wouldn't that logically mean they are posting on SS? Perhaps midstakes has the kind of debate Rkiray is looking for.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

CUZ OBVI0USLY STARTING A NEW THREAD TO DISCUSS NEW TOPICS WOULD BE SILLY WHEN WE CAN JUST KEEP RESURRECTING THIS THREAD OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND KEEP IT GOING ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND 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ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND 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ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND 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ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND 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ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND O

[William]

LOL, You're bored al? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[thomastem]

Interesting idea Big Al. I think the idea is deserving of the "You go girl!" award.

Why don't you help Rkiray with his frustration at SS impetance or do you feel that your post is an example of what to post on SS?

[thomastem]

Post pics of hot chics in every thread. Look I already got mine.

[ArchAngel71857]

AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON

I see the sailboat!

You just have to let your eyes relax.


-AA

[baggins]

AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON

you people should be ashamed of yourselves for this

AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON 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AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON

[thomastem]

Baggins I'm not sure I understood your point.

By the way I live in the Chicago area please let me know if you hear of any home games in the area.

[ArchAngel71857]

BUMP!


-AA

[thomastem]

I think we all owe Rkiray a big THANK YOU for starting one of the biggest all time posts ever at 2+2. The Grey Poupon dude really came through this time.

[thomastem]

Perhaps, no offense to Houston TX, Rkiray can host an online SS tourney. At this tourney all ss newbies are allowed to ask any questions they like as long as they are seeing 50% of the flops. Some names for this tourney could be:

Grey Poupon Bowl
Hand histories only bowl
My Backside hurt bowl
Houston we have a problem bowl
Cereal Bowl
SS meets Godzilla
Flame the fool bowl
soup bowl
RKiray gets lucky but throws out his black book bowl.
Critters in the pantry bowl

Any suggestions?

[ChipWrecked]

Bump.

Sorry can't resist....

[rkiray]

OK, since we are near the top of the page, this bump can't hurt. I'm hoping this thread will go away. I must admit I've happy since I've never started any thread that had anywhere near this many views or responses, but it's enough. I'm surprized that several people seem to want to keep it alive. I don't understand why.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, since we are near the top of the page, this bump can't hurt. I'm hoping this thread will go away. I must admit I've happy since I've never started any thread that had anywhere near this many views or responses, but it's enough. I'm surprized that several people seem to want to keep it alive. I don't understand why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because your post demonstrates what is wrong with the SS while asking the question. I truly think that the upity attitude that veterans show and intimidate newbies with dictates the the SS forum should be renamed "The Grey Poupon" forum.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

you know what McFK-stem, you personally have posted about twenty posts keeping this god-awful thread going, so my posting one more, and no doubt your fifteen responses, will make no difference. I have only one thing to say about your continual perpetuation of a thread that virtually everyone wants to NOT see at the top of this forum anymore:

FU

al

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
you know what McFK-stem, you personally have posted about twenty posts keeping this god-awful thread going, so my posting one more, and no doubt your fifteen responses, will make no difference. I have only one thing to say about your continual perpetuation of a thread that virtually everyone wants to NOT see at the top of this forum anymore:

FU

al

[/ QUOTE ]

Your thread doesn't require 15 responses just one.

You are correct in that I have certainly done my part in keeping this post bumped up here.

Do you ask the important question as to why? Nope

Do you PM me and tell me I'm angering you by bumping this article? Nope.

You go straight into public flaming and profanity. You did the same earlier in this post. You want me to get ***** I on the other hand hope your issues work themselves out.

The reason I continue to bump this, and it amazes me others don't see this or speak up, is that the post demonstrate perfectly what is wrong with the SS forum.

The post is started with a complaint that posters don't flame enough and the newbies on ss aren't competant enough for solid debate. Does anyone else see how wrong and ignorant this line of thinking is?

IMO when you start reading SS you learn, after a period of time and information learned the amount of new or challenging information or posts will go down. Not because of spamming or newbies "ruining" the content but because you have learned the bulk of what this forum has to offer. Logically you can either pick up the torch and fill the shoes that the heroes you talk about from your early SS days and help newbies or like in poker move up to a new level of discussion (Mid-Stakes, Probability, Theory) but don't flame new posters for wanting to talk about playing 3 tables at 3-6.

The attitude that newbies playing low limit hold'em aren't good enough to post in the low limit forum is elitist at horrendously pompous.

Waiting for posts that you can flame and belittle others is also immature. Putting someone down so that you yourself look better is a form of bragging. It is rampant in this thread and on the SS. Someone as soft spoken as Felicia Lee can't post without getting this childish grief.

This is what's wrong with the ss forum.

[Ulysses]

There are over 160 responses to this thread. I assume that one of them must contain the answer. So, what's the scoop guys? What is wrong with the SS forum? I hope it's something exciting.

[Vehn]

The answer is that the better players and posters eventually move on to the middle limits and lose interest in spending a lot of time posting in small stakes.

And Felicia is dumb.

Exciting enough for you??

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]


And Felicia is dumb.



[/ QUOTE ]

So now will Al Capone swear at you, me, or both of us?

[Vehn]

I don't know but I'm wet with anticipation.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

1) I participate on the SS forum. It's well known that it's the internet forum I am 'against.'

2) please do respond again and again and again and again to this post, we REALLY DO WANT THIS THREAD ON THE TOP OF THE FORUM FOREVER. All that other stuff I wrote was truth, not sarcasm.

3) FU AGAIN. HAPPY NOW?

4) [ QUOTE ]
Waiting for posts that you can flame and belittle others is also immature.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hello pot! This is kettle! Are you black?

5) since it's well known Felicialee and I are friends, I cannot see the relevance of comparing me to her flamers. I DO love to flame, this is well known too, I never claimed to be Mr. Nice, but I certainly do not flame people I actually LIKE. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[Vehn]

Well OK, the problem here Al is that even though you may like to "flame", you stink at it.

[thomastem]

I don't flame people you included. This pent up rage is no good for your health. Though I do appreciate your efforts in displaying the elitist dictator like attitude I'd rather you be healthy.

If you have a problem with the internet forum I suggest you count to 10, leave out the profanity, and post what is bothering you. Knowing that forum I assure you we will not treat you with an elitist attitude or swear at you.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

FU too! Keep up the work!*

I have so given up on ever seeing the news views and gossip forum ever again (as it's always buried in this thread) I figure I'll just play you and thomastem's game instead and keep posting a bunch of crap till eventually you get tired of responding. I have to see this post at the top of the page constantly so I figure you can see my BS responses to your BS responses all day long and we can all die of carpal tunnel without ever having said anything worthwhile (just like the last two weeks worth of this thread).

al

*I'd say good work, but, you know...

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
1) I participate on the SS forum. It's well known that it's the internet forum I am 'against.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh man. This could be the subthread that takes this thread to the next level.

Carry on.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) I participate on the SS forum. It's well known that it's the internet forum I am 'against.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh man. This could be the subthread that takes this thread to the next level.

Carry on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted on the Zoo asking what happened to make Al so mad at the Zoo. We'll get to the bottom of this.

[Mike Gallo]

Ok,

I have seen this post long enough.

I can answer for you guys. The answer, nothing.

Perhaps the ss forum did not change, but others have pointed out, you have changed RKiray.

Things go in cycles. Its the circle of life.

Kind of like boxing. Everyone asks what wrong with the heavyweight division.

[Ulysses]

I have no opinion on the matter and was merely asking the question so you could elaborate on your statement regarding that forum.

[thomastem]

Yes what is your problem with the Zoo?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I hear you posted something on the zoo asking why I am "against" it. yea that's right, things get around quick. I hear they're already accusing me of being infected with tertiary syphilis*. Nope, that was dad. I am STD free.

the myriad of crap you get as responses to your zoo post shall be it's own punishment for your being too chicken to get in a flame war with me all by your little pathetic lonesome, preferring instead to get your zoo buddies on your side rather than flame on heads up like a man.

al

*look it up in a medical dictionary, that's d-i-c-t-i-o-n-a-r-y

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[Wake up CALL]

I do not know what is wrong with the SS forum. Nor do I know why Al is unhappy with the internet forum. I do know that the News, Views and Gossip forum would be better off without Al and Vehn.

Flame Away!!!

[thomastem]

Oh Big Al this isn't good. First you state your disdain for the Zoo, then you wonder why I ask the zoo what happened, and now I hear that you flame women.

Not good Al not good at all

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
First you state your disdain for the Zoo, then you wonder why I ask the zoo what happened, and now I hear that you flame women.


[/ QUOTE ]

I flame women? I flame those who are less than gentlemanly to the ladies is more like it, such as your buddy redhotpigman. You take things to the zoo cuz you haven't the balls to stand up and fight for yourself, you'd rather have a bunch of your zoo buddies help you start vicious rumors (standard zoo procedure). Well since I don't go to the zoo, start all the BS you want there. It should be right up to par with the rest of the posts normally found there.

That's it. I am done with this post, your posts, the zoo (I always have hated the zoo anyway, FK you if you can't figure out why). You can have all the fifteen million last word posts you want. Don't forget to come up with some new rumors and accusations too, if you get your zoo buddies to help you, you might actually be able to create something juicy enough to entertain yourselves.

al

[thomastem]

Al,

I've got a kleenex and a quarter for you. Life really is unfair. /images/graemlins/frown.gif If you are lonely and no one likes you I can send some sheep your way.

[thomastem]

They think I'm nuts at work. I read the below PM and Belly laughed in front of all my co-workers. I guess Al wants me at high noon on the school yard play groung! /images/graemlins/grin.gif Here is his PM to me:

obviously i hate your guts and you hate mine. all i really wanted to do was try to convince everyone to QUIT POSTING ON THAT GOD AWFUL THREAD. I could really care less what rumors you start, [censored] anyone who believes them. So unless you just want to meet up and duke it out in person, let's quit the feud so the NVG forum can have something other than the SS forum thread at the top.

al

[XlgJoe]

Thomastem

I think you are carrying this thread/ battle a little to far. I think your barnyard humour can be quite funny most of the time, and agree with most of what you say. But enough is enough. Printing someones PM to you is alittle on the low side, although I am sure that will get him to tilt even more.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

"you cannot even understand sarcasm in the slightest. Plus you really do have no morals, do you? I send you a PERSONAL message and you post it. You know I didn't really hate you, but I can tell you can't distinguish sarcasm from direct quoted factuality. You claim to be just playing around, but then when I do the same thing you post it and claim that I am being totally serious.

At this point you are taking this sillyness beyond that which I can personally stand without REALLY starting to hate you, NO SARCASM HERE. Meanwhile, another post goes up in that thread! Just xxxxxx drop it xxxxxx!

go ahead and post this one too since you will anyway. If you dont I will.

al"

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Thomastem

I think you are carrying this thread/ battle a little to far. I think your barnyard humour can be quite funny most of the time, and agree with most of what you say. But enough is enough. Printing someones PM to you is alittle on the low side, although I am sure that will get him to tilt even more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I probably got carried away. The PM was so funny but I could have stayed on the right side of the street and not copied it.

Al please accept my appologies.

[Ulysses]

a) Thomastem posting your PM was weak.

b) It's quite ironic that his doing that resulted in you posting another message to this thread.

c) I can't believe I'm posting in this thread. But I do feel some strange compulsion to have it go on forever.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
a) Thomastem posting your PM was weak.

b) It's quite ironic that his doing that resulted in you posting another message to this thread.

c) I can't believe I'm posting in this thread. But I do feel some strange compulsion to have it go on forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

#A. I thought I appologized for making a mistake. I agree it was dumb and if I had a time machine it would never happen. What now 50 people are going to hammer me even though I've appologized?

Every 1000 posts am I not entitled to 1 mistake? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ArchAngel71857]

#A.
A is a letter.

Every 1000 posts am I not entitled to 1 mistake?

Sure. but A is a letter, so there's your one.

-Letter A Letter A

[Rick Nebiolo]

...having the option of viewing threads in a flat, threaded mode where the indenture level is maintained so you can skim fast and have some sense of where you are.

Does anybody if this is a progrmable option with this BBS software? If not, does any BBS software allows this?

~ Rick

[mosch]

UBB doesn't currently have an option for a 'nested' flat view. There is software which does, but I can't imagine anybody would want to go through the effort neccessary to convert the forums.

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody if this is a progrmable option with this BBS software?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes [ QUOTE ]
If not, does any BBS software allows this?


[/ QUOTE ] Yes

[Roy Munson]

[ArchAngel71857]

[thomastem]

The King schooled the Cracker Boss....nough said!

[Ulysses]

[Ulysses]

[Gamblor]

As in, don't get your...

Let's go for something really big... 500!

Hmmm...

SS = Small Shlongs.

Flame away!...

Please?

[rkiray]

As the person who unfortunately started this mess, I wonder if I can just ask Mat to nuke it.

[hutz]

Please do. Or, rather than nuking it, maybe Mat could move it to the "older archives" or some other section (the Zoo perhaps? /images/graemlins/grin.gif ). It appeared that it was finally going to die its own death, but then everyone's "favorite" spammer decided to post in it again.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Please do. Or, rather than nuking it, maybe Mat could move it to the "older archives" or some other section (the Zoo perhaps? /images/graemlins/grin.gif ). It appeared that it was finally going to die its own death, but then everyone's "favorite" spammer decided to post in it again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling me a spammer is slander. Now how would you feel if I ever said anything bad about you?

[Simon Diamond]

I wonder if I can just ask Mat to nuke it.

Have you asked? I'm pretty certain threads can be locked if requested.

Simon

[hutz]

Ugh. I'm not going to breathe artificial life into this thread by getting into a back-and-forth debate with you, but I will respond to this post. First, "slander" is an oral statement and "libel" is a written statement. In order for either to be actionable, the allegedly defamatory statement must be untrue. What I posted was/is objectively true. If you look at your posts, the vast majority are devoid of any substance. That, in Internet message board parlance, is spamming (i.e., posting for the sake of posting, even if the post contributes little/nothing to the forum/thread). One who spams is a "spammer." You were called as much (and rightfully so) by the BOSS himself (Cracker Zack) in the thread regarding the first BOSS tournament and by rkiray in the Zoo v. SS rematch tournament thread. My statement is true and therefore not libelous. As to your question, it's laughable (hey, you actually (albeit unintentionally) said something funny in a post!) that you would think you've never said anything bad to/about me before.

[Gamblor]

Perhaps some evidence of thomastem's spamming would strengthen your case.

[mikelow]

[rkiray]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps some evidence of thomastem's spamming would strengthen your case

[/ QUOTE ]

I nominate this for the funniest post ever made on these boards. Can you read?

[rkiray]

I just asked him to nuke it. We will see what happens.

[Mat Sklansky]

I haven't done a poll in awhile, so..

[Gamblor]

Can you read?

... the title of my post?

[thomastem]

Women have it tough so let's take it easy on RKiray. Here is a list of things that man have the advatage and puts women's panties in a wad.


- Your last name stays put.

- The garage is all yours.

- Wedding plans take care of themselves.

- Chocolate is just another snack.

- You can wear a white T-shirt to a water park.

- Car mechanics tell you the truth.

- You don't give a rat's behind if someone notices your new haircut.

- The world is your urinal.

- You never have to drive to another gas station because this one's just too icky.

- Same work... more pay.

- Wrinkles add character.

- Wedding Dress $5000; Tux rental $100.

- People never stare at your chest when you're talking to them.

- The occasional well-rendered belch is practically expected.

- Your pals can be trusted never to trap you with: "So, notice anything different?"

- One mood, ALL the dang time.

- Phone conversations are over in 30 seconds flat.

- Your belly usually hides your big hips.

- One wallet and one pair of shoes, one color, all seasons.

- You can "do" your nails with a pocketknife.

[JohnShaft]

OK, to get my one post in this 'legendary' abortion of a thread (Ugh!) all I'll say is, in the eventually that it will continue (which looks to be the case), it will be a hollow victory.

Two of the options that want to see the thread end are splitting the votes in half. As such though most people seem to want to see it end, the "let it live" voters will win.
Kinda ironic, considering how [censored] up this thread has become.

[ramjam]

[mikelow]

This whole thread looks like clutter to me. And since it has bumped other more useful posts, I stand by what I said--spam!

[Mat Sklansky]

Actually, if after 100 votes, there are more combined votes for its demise, I will lock it. At this point it would be a shame to delete it entirely.

Mat

[Lori]

At this point it would be a shame to delete it entirely.

You could change this to the News, Views (*Terms and Conditions apply) and Gossip (*Unless the Gossip isn't of interest to certain people) Forum.

Lori

[HUSKER'66]

[ QUOTE ]
At this point it would be a shame to delete it entirely.

Mat


[/ QUOTE ]


Hear hear!

[J.R.]

At this point it would be a shame to delete it entirely.

Amen, screw sensorship and the lazy lugs who can't be bothered to adjust their viewing settings so this thread is no more obtrusive than any other.

[ArchAngel71857]

After all this, I still don't know what's wrong with the SS forum


-AA

[Inthacup]

After all this, I still don't know what's wrong with the SS forum

For starters, I don't post there very much anymore.


Cup

[rkiray]

That became irrelevent to this thread ages ago. That's why I asked Mat to nuke it. But locking it makes more sense.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, if after 100 votes, there are more combined votes for its demise, I will lock it. At this point it would be a shame to delete it entirely.

Mat

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so I understand. Lets say only 20 of the peolple that want to continue this discussion vote to keep. Shall we start deleting all posts because where only 20 people are benefited? Even if a minority want this post to stay how is the majority negatively effected? If people would rather complain about space than adjust their view settings, to accomodate them, why not leave the innitial post, a link to the current threads, and allow people their discussion.

This is News, Views, and gossip what has anyone done wrong other than have one of the most successful posts ever?

I hope logic wins out here and if not I hope enough people see that it's just wrong to lock this and vote to keep it.

[pudley4]

The posts in this thread aren't about anything other than the thread itself. It's like those celebrities who are famous for just being famous /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Lock the thread. There's nothing useful being posted in it anymore, but the original topic/discussion is still correct.

[Simon Diamond]

If people would rather complain about space than adjust their view settings, to accomodate them, why not leave the innitial post, a link to the current threads, and allow people their discussion.

Alternatively, it could move home to a brand new forum (one of it's own with all the mod cons), and people can then bump it to their hearts content.

Simon

[thomastem]

Do you guys realize that we are on pace for another 50-100 posts?!? How on earth can a forum even discuss killing something this popular? I hope the logical people vote and hey feel free to post as come tomorrow we may no longer have the right to in this discussion.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
If people would rather complain about space than adjust their view settings, to accomodate them, why not leave the innitial post, a link to the current threads, and allow people their discussion.

Alternatively, it could move home to a brand new forum (one of it's own with all the mod cons), and people can then bump it to their hearts content.

Simon

[/ QUOTE ]

Matter of fact if it's in it's own forum who is it hurting? If we go that route I vote to name it "What's wrong with the SS Forum Started by Rkiray"

[Simon Diamond]

If we go that route I vote to name it "What's wrong with the SS Forum Started by Rkiray"

Don't forget to add - "and continued by Thomastem" on it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Simon

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
If we go that route I vote to name it "What's wrong with the SS Forum Started by Rkiray"

Don't forget to add - "and continued by Thomastem" on it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Simon

[/ QUOTE ]

You give me too much credit Simon /images/graemlins/cool.gif We do agree that it would be a disservice to not allow people to continue a post. That said, please vote in the poll. If we need to make arrangements because it's cluttering viewers from seeing others posts let's fix that instead of killing this.

[rkiray]

Sometimes TT, I'm confused whether you hate me or if you are trying to be my press agent. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes TT, I'm confused whether you hate me or if you are trying to be my press agent. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't meant anyone nor do I know anyone that posts here well enough to "Hate" anyone. That word sums up the problem the SS and you have. You HATE new posters and view their questions as a waste of time. This post begins with your rant proving such. Try a little tolerance.

I see you've become a big hit on the tourney forum too now. How much trounle do you need to cause every day?

[rusty JEDI]

How about instead we move this whole thread over to the zoo.

Or option 5, if you lock it up it gets pinned to the top of the SS.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
How about instead we move this whole thread over to the zoo.

Or option 5, if you lock it up it gets pinned to the top of the SS.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like option 5

[rkiray]

Laugh,

I don't hate anyone here. I actually liked playing with you at the True table with Husker one night. I thought we were getting along better. You have just gone nuts since I let you into the BOSS tourney (apparnt case of temporary insanity on my part). Perhaps you were just angry with your pitiful performance in the tourney. I just think that the forums are organized and spam type posts belong in this forum, other topics and the zoo (I really wish the zoo was a bit more organized, but I won't fight it since the people who hang out there like it). I just don't think your thinking is organized enough to realize that the poker forums should be used to actually discuss poker. You seem to be so much in favor of anarchy I don't understand why you post here. RGP seems to be what you want to turn this place into. Why not just go there?

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Laugh,

I don't hate anyone here. I actually liked playing with you at the True table with Husker one night. I thought we were getting along better. You have just gone nuts since I let you into the BOSS tourney (apparnt case of temporary insanity on my part). Perhaps you were just angry with your pitiful performance in the tourney. I just think that the forums are organized and spam type posts belong in this forum, other topics and the zoo (I really wish the zoo was a bit more organized, but I won't fight it since the people who hang out there like it). I just don't think your thinking is organized enough to realize that the poker forums should be used to actually discuss poker. You seem to be so much in favor of anarchy I don't understand why you post here. RGP seems to be what you want to turn this place into. Why not just go there?

[/ QUOTE ]

You must have forgot your meds. I don't whine about bad beats so I had nothing to say about Boss. I went out early because my A-K lost to A-Q and my Q-Q lost to 9-9. If you want to call that a poor peformance....ok then.

Anarchy? No, against dictatorship. Against your post here complaining that new people ask questions to stupid to go in your forum. You deemed this post, that you started, not good enough for your forum and threw it here. How did you gain ownership of SS?

Nothing to do with poker? There is more to poker than hand histories. Matter of fact tolerance and people skills are extrememly important in my opinion. If you find someone stupid or you don't enjoy humor at the poker table you don't try to dictate who is allowed at your table provided they aren't breaking rules. What makes a forum different? Who are you to dictate? Someone announces a tournament in small stakes and you chase him away and say he is spamming. Look up the definition of Spam.

I don't hate you don't even dislike you. It is more like pity with hope that one day you will the light.

[rkiray]

I actually mentioned in SS that you got a couple of really bad beats put on you in BOSS. You are right, you didn't play poorly and you haven't complained, you have just gone nuts with spam.

I just understand what the different forums are for. You seem to think anyone should be able to post anything, anywhere. Go to RGP with the other crazies. Why do you like it here better than RGP? You seem to get angry with the moderator and anyone who talks to him. That's the only this site is better than RGP IMO.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually mentioned in SS that you got a couple of really bad beats put on you in BOSS. You are right, you didn't play poorly and you haven't complained, you have just gone nuts with spam.

I just understand what the different forums are for. You seem to think anyone should be able to post anything, anywhere. Go to RGP with the other crazies. Why do you like it here better than RGP? You seem to get angry with the moderator and anyone who talks to him. That's the only this site is better than RGP IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have any idea how silly you sound? Don't make accusations about me getting mad at the moderator when I have never had an argument with him. This is really dumb as if the moderator addresses this he can only correct you. I have never had an argument with him or words of anger about him.

You asked for this post to be deleted yet you keep posting in it.

You are the only one that says I spam in every post. I guess you are too as my recent posts are discussion with you.

There is one person that complains to the mod about me that is correct. There is also one person that swears constantly at me and others. Your point?

Gathering facts and using them for your advantage at the poker table will win you pots. I think everyone could improve their game by improving this skill. This paragraph is not spam even though there is no hand history in it.

[Wad]

Ok, I couldn't resist....

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a list of things that man have the advatage and puts women's panties in a wad.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are no panties in me. That is all.

[jek187]

Ok, I absolutely hate leaving the Zoo. But a little birdy notified me of this thread, and I must say I find it very amusing. This thread is a work of art, and to take it down would be a shame. Plus, I wanted to get a post in this in case it gets locked.


And oh yeah....BUMP.

[thomastem]

There are so many ways to save this landmark. We have a duty, nay an obligation to save the Grey Poupon Rant. How long will it be before Rkiray begins another post in News/Views? Once started will we be able to get Al Capone and Hugs to grace it with their presence?

We could make a new forum called "Grey Poupon Dude walks the Green Mile"

[Gamblor]

If Granny were to ever return to 2+2, it would be in this thread.

Perhaps this is a WWF-style lead-up to her "Ali-like return to the ring"!

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
If Granny were to ever return to 2+2, it would be in this thread.

Perhaps this is a WWF-style lead-up to her "Ali-like return to the ring"!

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be awesome! I'd love to see Grannie deal with the fruits, flakes, and nuts (Hugs, Rkiroy, Big Al in proper order).

Life would be perfect if Grannie and Joey Bitch made a return. Don't they both belong in this historical post?

[thomastem]

Over 5000 views. Rkiray's post below started it all and the Grey Poupon dude was born. Please reread this piece of art and coment before it gets locked. Doesn't it make you wanna post in small stakes?


[ QUOTE ]
Warning : I feel like venting. Don't read this if you don't want to hear me vent.

Today someone posted that one of my SS posts was harsh. I don't disagree. I think the problems with SS, why it's much worse than it was just six months ago, is there arn't enough harsh posts. Anyone who thinks my SS or Microlimit posts are harsh should go back and read the archives from 6 to 12 months ago. My posts are nothing. Particularly read the posts by Dynasty, Majorkong, and Clarkmeister. They each ripped me several new aholes, and I'm a better poker player because of it. Rigolloto and Ulysses (both probably spelled wrong) were a little less blunt but they didn't really pull any punches either. And in a more civil way I used to have great poker debates with Homer, Bob T., J.R., 'Lil, JTG, Joe Tall and many others. There arn't many good debates anymore. Maybe my problem is I'm constipated since no one has ripped me a new ahole in months. It seems like we have very few debates anymore. It's like we're in a communist country and we are all just quoting the doctrine. I can't remember the last thread where we had two people took different sides and battled it out. We used to get quite passionate. Don't see that anymore. Now that Bernie is back, ask him how passionate SS used to be able to get about JJ. I think it was much better in those days.

I actually think the problem is the quality of posts and posters has gone way down hill since the poker popularity explosion. Now most of the posts are such simple questions there is not much to argue about. And in the few cases where someone does post an interesting question or hand there are too few really good posters left to take various sides on the issues.

Oh well, seems like 44 is too young to be an angry old man. I'm just starting early.

[/ QUOTE ]

[crockb00n]

BUMP

[Stagemusic]

I have been reading this and, believe me, it took awhile. I am a "Zooster" by habit although I refuse to limit my poker education and only post and read there. I enjoy some of TT's posts with his critters and all but I have found that, recently, he has become quite strident in his quest to villify the SS forum. Unfortunately, I believe he is WRONG and needs to quell his enthusiasm for ripping the SS forum and those that post there exclusively. Enough is enough and we all get your point Thomas. You have taken it far enough and it's not really amusing any longer.

I have read this thread a couple of times now and I have to say that I do understand Rkiray's point. All he is saying is that the SS forum was more fun and he was able to learn more because of the biting commentary that the posters used to review hands and situations...simple enough. His opinion of the forum now is that people cannot take the heat of criticism and that has affected the usefulness of the forum...he simply wants to get it back to the way it was. Nostalgia, pure and simple.

Let it go TT. No where that I can read did Rkiray say it was "his" forum. He simply missed the "good ol' days". As we all do from time to time...what's the big deal? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[rkiray]

[Gamblor]

I have read this thread a couple of times now

Not a lot of friends, eh? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Oh, and *BUMP*

[Stagemusic]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a lot of friends, eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL...nice shot. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Actually, it was a little boring this morning at work